PBS: "Beyond the Motor City" - Future of rail in Detroit

[mogo]

Long time/first time.

PBS is debuting this documentary on Feb. 8 at 10 p.m. If the complete film is anything like the preview, it looks like it shows Detroit as the city that will again lead the country in transportation; but, this time it will be in high-speed rail.

The abandoned buildings are unavoidable, but, in this film, they almost seem to represent opportunity. Much like Chicago after the fire, our city is a clean slate that we can build up for the future.

According to Mlive, the following points are made in the film:

• Detroit is the traditional epicenter of transportation. Cars are the obvious example, but before that, Detroit had the country's most extensive streetcar system. Few think about it this way, but without such a good streetcar system, Detroit would not have had the infrastructure to build and cart workers to those big auto factories in the first place. Also, freeways and stoplights were both born in Detroit.
• Detroit is in prime position for a complete makeover. Lots of space, empty buildings, open streets. We all know what Detroit looks like today. But according to experts, all this open land looks like a blank canvas for urban planners and transportation specialists looking to try out new things.
• Detroit lacks a major public transportation system. See reasoning above. With little more than a slimmed-down bus system to offer, Detroit is primed and ready for something better.

I can't wait to see it.

[Hermod]

Detroit was a transportation "destination" with lots of traffic in and out (both rail and truck).

It was not a "transportation center" in the sense of Chicago, St Louis, or Cincinnati.

You didn't "route" traffic through Detroit

Detroit was a "sidetrack" off of the main east-west trunk lines.

Detroit was an important major metro area because of the industry it contained, not because it was any kind of a "hub".

[mogo]

Originally Posted by Hermod

Detroit was a transportation "destination" with lots of traffic in and out (both rail and truck).

It was not a "transportation center" in the sense of Chicago, St Louis, or Cincinnati.

You didn't "route" traffic through Detroit

Detroit was a "sidetrack" off of the main east-west trunk lines.

Detroit was an important major metro area because of the industry it contained, not because it was any kind of a "hub".

I'm not sure I understand what this means. Are you saying it won't work because of the state of the auto industry? Where did you get this information? I'd like to read more about it.

[mikeg19]

Looks interesting. I'll certainly have to give it a watch.

[Hermod]

Originally Posted by mogo

I'm not sure I understand what this means. Are you saying it won't work because of the state of the auto industry? Where did you get this information? I'd like to read more about it.

From a look at the rail map of the US and from "Official Guides" of the railroads from the thirties, forties, and fifties.

Even in the days of the car ferries, it was only traffic originating or terminating in Detroit that went into Detroit. Traffic to or from the east-west trunk lines in Ohio (Erie, Nickel Plate, NYC, B&O, PRR) would move north o the C&O )Pere Marquette) or Ann Arbor and run through Plymouth or Ann Arbor.

In theory, traffic could move across Canada on the C&O or NYC and pass through Detroit on the way to Chicago, but traffic not bound for Detroit usually went from Buffalo to Chicago via the east-west lines in Ohio.

Detroit was a destination and not a hub.

Detroit (and the whole state of Michigan) is off "the beaten path). So long as Detroit has viable industries that traffic in goods to be transported, it will be a significant "point of origin" and a destination. Geography says it will not be a hub except for intra-state Michigan traffic.

Think of the state of Michigan as a suburban subdivision cul-de-sac. Not Michigan's fault, but simple geography.

[Todd_Scott]

Originally Posted by Hermod

You didn't "route" traffic through Detroit

So how do you explain us having the busiest international border crossing in North America which accounts for more than 25 percent of all merchandise trade between the US and Canada?

Detroit is certainly not a "cul-de-sac."

[Hermod]

Originally Posted by Todd_Scott

So how do you explain us having the busiest international border crossing in North America which accounts for more than 25 percent of all merchandise trade between the US and Canada?

Detroit is certainly not a "cul-de-sac."

Because it is going to or from the Detroit area.

Toronto traffic bound for the US will go through. New York and new England traffic goers through Toledo.

[mogo]

Originally Posted by Hermod

From a look at the rail map of the US and from "Official Guides" of the railroads from the thirties, forties, and fifties.

Even in the days of the car ferries, it was only traffic originating or terminating in Detroit that went into Detroit. Traffic to or from the east-west trunk lines in Ohio (Erie, Nickel Plate, NYC, B&O, PRR) would move north o the C&O )Pere Marquette) or Ann Arbor and run through Plymouth or Ann Arbor.

In theory, traffic could move across Canada on the C&O or NYC and pass through Detroit on the way to Chicago, but traffic not bound for Detroit usually went from Buffalo to Chicago via the east-west lines in Ohio.

Detroit was a destination and not a hub.

Detroit (and the whole state of Michigan) is off "the beaten path). So long as Detroit has viable industries that traffic in goods to be transported, it will be a significant "point of origin" and a destination. Geography says it will not be a hub except for intra-state Michigan

Originally Posted by Hermod

traffic.

Think of the state of Michigan as a suburban subdivision cul-de-sac. Not Michigan's fault, but simple geography.

It won't be a hub like Chicago, but I'm not so sure that the historic maps are a good indicator of who the riders would be today. Per the Toronto website, their population has grown by almost 2.5 times since the 50's:

In 1901, the City of Toronto's population was 208,040. The geographic area that is now (2006) occupied by the City of Toronto was 238,080.

In 1951, the City of Toronto's population was 675,754. The geographic area that is now (2006) occupied by the City of Toronto was 1,117,470.The suburban boom had started, increasing the population outside the city.

In 2001, the population of the amalgamated City of Toronto was 2,841,500.

I think the question will be, will those people take the train to Chicago, or fly?

[Hermod]

Originally Posted by mogo

I think the question will be, will those people take the train to Chicago, or fly?[/size][/font]

The current train from Toronto to Chicago does not go through Detroit, it goes through Port Huron and Durand.

[mogo]

Originally Posted by Hermod

The current train from Toronto to Chicago does not go through Detroit, it goes through Port Huron and Durand.

Perhaps things have changed, but, three years ago, my wife and I were told that the train stopped going through Port Huron after 9/11.

[dtowncitylover]

Originally Posted by Hermod

The current train from Toronto to Chicago does not go through Detroit, it goes through Port Huron and Durand.

Yeah, that train has been discontinued.

[terryh]

Could one of you be so kind as to Email me a reminder Terry783@hotmail.com about the PBS special? I know there is already a protracted thread about light rail in the metropolitan Detroit region which I will get around to reading at some point -to read the pros and cons and possibly understand some of the complexities of the issue......

My immediate perception-bias is that an extensive-straight up the main thouroghfares and mile roads light rail would benefit many working poor-lower middle class residents of the Detroit metro area, allowing many to save enough money to pay off or purchase a car, and would have a positive impact on the environment. .......

[ghettopalmetto]

It sounds like the argument the film is making is that Detroit is the transportation hub of Southeast Michigan, not necessarily on a national level.

[Hermod]

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

It sounds like the argument the film is making is that Detroit is the transportation hub of Southeast Michigan, not necessarily on a national level.

True in the sense that if it is going to northern Michigan or into Canada, it "may" be handled in a Detroit switching yard.

CSX trains not having a destination in the city of course go north over the old Pere Marquette tracks through Plymouth.

The trains coming up from Toledo, not going though Plymouth, may be switched in Detroit as might the trains coming east from Chicago. These trains would then go through the tunnel to Windsor or up the Grand Truck to Port Huron and Sarnia.

[Russix]

Originally Posted by terryh

…
My immediate perception-bias is that an extensive-straight up the main thouroghfares and mile roads light rail would benefit many working poor-lower middle class residents of the Detroit metro area, allowing many to save enough money to pay off or purchase a car, and would have a positive impact on the environment. .......

This is really the fundamental problem with our region. I’m not trying to confront your point of view personally, I’m just realizing that this as an insight to a widely held public point of view.

“working poor-lower middle class”

“save enough to buy a car”

This is not how to look at rapid transit for Metro Detroit. The attitude for success is to view this as an investment in our region to improve a badly needed public asset for everyone to use. Things like:

“I could leave my car at home and commute to work.”

“I could go out with my friends for the evening and not worry about driving.”

“I could go to a sporting event downtown and not have to worry about parking or traffic.”

“I could ride my bike to the light rail station and take it with me anywhere I wanted to.”

“If I needed to save money I could sell my car.”

“I could open a business near a light rail stop that has a large pedestrian traffic volume.”

“Visitors to Detroit could get around without renting a car or taxi”

“I wouldn’t have to drive other friends/family members around anymore because they don’t have their own car”

“We would no longer be the only large city in the US without rail transit”

“People from other areas who like transit or urban living might start taking advantage of our low property values and move here if we build better mass transit”

“Cities with good transit are more desirable.”

These are the conversation we should be having with our friends and neighbors. The old attitude is changing slowly. I’ve heard the Regional Transit Authority is coming up for a vote in Lansing, more conversations like this and more calls to Lansing are needed.

[ljbad89]

Well said, Russix.

[Hermod]

Originally Posted by Russix

“1. I could leave my car at home and commute to work.”

“2. I could go out with my friends for the evening and not worry about driving.”

“3. I could go to a sporting event downtown and not have to worry about parking or traffic.”

“4. I could ride my bike to the light rail station and take it with me anywhere I wanted to.”

“5. If I needed to save money I could sell my car.”

“6. I could open a business near a light rail stop that has a large pedestrian traffic volume.”

“7. Visitors to Detroit could get around without renting a car or taxi”

“8. I wouldn’t have to drive other friends/family members around anymore because they don’t have their own car”

“9. We would no longer be the only large city in the US without rail transit”

“10. People from other areas who like transit or urban living might start taking advantage of our low property values and move here if we build better mass transit”

“11. Cities with good transit are more desirable.”

12. These are the conversation we should be having with our friends and neighbors.

I took the liberty of adding numbers to your points.

1. Only if the light/heavy rail/expanded SMART bus system goes within a couple of blocks of my house and a couple of blocks of where I work and I can do it without a two hour journey of transfers. A radial system running from downtown Detroit doesn't do much for metro area workers.

2. As in 1. except now it has to go within a few blocks of Louie's Bar AND has to keep running after rush hour.

3. As in 2. Washington DC has a quite comprehensive metro subway/el system. You can't use it in the evening because the last trains run at midnight. You have to make sure that whatever you are doing gets you to the station by 11:30 or so. South Florida Tri-Rail runs its last trains at 10PM.

4. If only the mob of people standing in the aisle had room for my bike to squeeze in. Of course as a bike rider, I have a special entitlement, so I will just ram it through them.

5. If only I wasn't upside-down on the payments.

[Russix]

1. This is a pretty valid point: What is considered the useful proximity of a transit station? This really changes from person to person. Light rail stations are usually fed by other forms of transit or have some parking. If there is a will, there is a means. Any system will do a lot for metro area workers if it encourages job growth regardless if they personally use it or not.

2. Louie’s Bar would be smart to run a shuttle between the nearest light rail station if they were farther than a few blocks.

3. Detroit use to be a three-shift town. I know that’s waned quite a bit in recent years but downtown is the region’s entertainment destination which would be ridiculous to ignore the potential of providing evening and late-night weekend service. The second biggest surprise for the Phoenix light-rail line(first being that it’s initial ridership was double than predicted) was more people used it to go out for the evening than did commuting to work.

4. Can you please provide specific examples of this? Mass transit systems usually require a bicyclist to cede their space to other passengers during high capacity by either moving to another car or getting off the train altogether.

5. Short sale the car while it still has some value, pay off the debt with the money you saved by riding transit and in the future try to stay within your means. I like my car too, but I also like my wallet.

[terryh]

Originally Posted by Russix

This is really the fundamental problem with our region. I’m not trying to confront your point of view personally, I’m just realizing that this as an insight to a widely held public point of view.

“working poor-lower middle class”

“save enough to buy a car”

This is not how to look at rapid transit for Metro Detroit. The attitude for success is to view this as an investment in our region to improve a badly needed public asset for everyone to use. Things like:

“I could leave my car at home and commute to work.”

“I could go out with my friends for the evening and not worry about driving.”

“I could go to a sporting event downtown and not have to worry about parking or traffic.”

“I could ride my bike to the light rail station and take it with me anywhere I wanted to.”

“If I needed to save money I could sell my car.”

“I could open a business near a light rail stop that has a large pedestrian traffic volume.”

“Visitors to Detroit could get around without renting a car or taxi”

“I wouldn’t have to drive other friends/family members around anymore because they don’t have their own car”

“We would no longer be the only large city in the US without rail transit”

“People from other areas who like transit or urban living might start taking advantage of our low property values and move here if we build better mass transit”

“Cities with good transit are more desirable.”

These are the conversation we should be having with our friends and neighbors. The old attitude is changing slowly. I’ve heard the Regional Transit Authority is coming up for a vote in Lansing, more conversations like this and more calls to Lansing are needed.

great points Russix...a transit system would provide jobs true? Maintainance-cleaning...conductors etc..

[Detroitnerd]

Originally Posted by terryh

great points Russix...a transit system would provide jobs true? Maintainance-cleaning...conductors etc..

Rail provides more jobs than roads. IIRC, it's a multiple.

[Russix]

This is tonight!

[kellyroad]

Ny time article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/08/ar...blueprint.html

PBS link:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/blueprintamerica/

Is anyone watching tonight?
Do you think this will be a rehash of what many of us already know?

[Detroitnerd]

Originally Posted by kellyroad

Ny time article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/08/ar...blueprint.html

PBS link:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/blueprintamerica/

Is anyone watching tonight?
Do you think this will be a rehash of what many of us already know?

I was thinking that, for those of us who'd like to add light rail to Detroit's transit mix, it will be a no-brainer. (And for those pleased with the status quo, and opportunity to jam their fingers in their ears and cry, "Lalalalalalalala!")

[Russix]

The NY Time article states that this is a 90-minute program, whereas TV guide list the runtime as 1 hour. Is this a typo or is there a longer "uncut" version?

[Mackinaw]

It may provide information that many people in this forum already know about, but I have a feeling it will be significant in drawing the spotlight back to Detroit, specifically with regards to transit. The need to change will be underscored. Hopefully it will cause us to take steps forward in each of the following ways: 1) regular people becoming more open minded regarding use of transit. 2) local leaders seizing the spotlight and increasing their motivation to get regional transit in place. 3) national leaders with the power of the purse recognizing how important Detroit is and how great its needs are in this department.

[ljbad89]

Russix, the listings guide on my TV shows it as being on from 10-11:30.

[Hermod]

Originally Posted by Mackinaw

1) regular people becoming more open minded regarding use of transit.

Most people will use public transit IF:

a. It is convenient for them (i.e. it goes from twhere they are to where they want to go at the time they want to go)

b. Public transit is clean, well maintained, and pleasant

c. It is safe with few "undesirable" fellow passengers

2) local leaders seizing the spotlight and increasing their motivation to get regional transit in place.

As opposed to local leaders standing there with their hands out demanding a piece of the action

3) national leaders with the power of the purse recognizing how important Detroit is and how great its needs are in this department.

At a time when the national budget is in deep doo doo. Maybe Detroit and Michigan need to up their tax burdens.

[DetroitPlanner]

I am looking forward to watching this. I hope they look at all alternative modes.

I think many of you are confusing inter and intra regional trips. Our region in spite of its penninsular geography does a good job with interregional trips. We have great airports, access to sea-going vessels (and their invasive species another topic entirely), rail radiating from the region and semi-trucks. As mentioned we are one of the leading ports of entry and export despite our not being located on a true seaboard. The bulk of trade with Canada comes through Detroit because we have better access to the South and West where the markets are and the majority of the other manufacturing takes place. The Northeast may have population, but manufacturing is not there in great numbers anymore and it is better to take I-75 S to get to FL than the eastern seaboard.

What we need to improve on is intraregional travel. We need to make it easier for the Garden Fresh guy to get his salsa from Ferndale to Ann Arbor, and we also need to make it easier to get grandma from her home in Clinton Township to her doctor at the DMC or Henry Ford. We have traded our interregional connections at the expense of our intraregional connections.

[Russix]

Originally Posted by ljbad89

Russix, the listings guide on my TV shows it as being on from 10-11:30.

Yes, I just double checked it and it looks that way now too.

[dtowncitylover]

What a very good program.

They also seem VERY gung-ho on getting that M-1 Rail to break ground by what I hear, the 3rd quarter of this year.

[smogboy]

VERY interesting show indeed.

I liked it. It didn't cast Detroit as a "poor me" and it more or less said that we could. Seeing what they've done in Spain with regards to transit is amazing. And whether it can happen here will depend a LOT on the politicians and visionaries to have the fortitude to soldier on.

[pffft]

One other use of transit I didn't see listed -- for seniors who can't or shouldn't be on the road.

I know many who live in the suburbs and would dearly love to go to Detroit to the symphony, to the opera, to the DIA...all their old haunts.

[Lowell]

Outstanding. Sure there were a couples of stretches only an insider would notice but this was very well researched and well edited with great computer graphics and historical overlays. In the end however I still felt the nagging question. Too little too late? IMO, for Woodward to work the rail needs to run from the river to Pontiac. Well we are about to see and I hope the starter plan is a huge success.

Throughout, I felt as though I was listening to this forum as so many of the images, topics and issues have been and are being discussed in such depth and length here.

[Gsgeorge]

I agree, Lowell, the program was wonderfully produced and outlined all the questions and examples that come up when talking about transit in Detroit. I too think the light rail needs to run into Oakland County to be successful. Bridging the 8 Mile barrier seemed to be a theme in the program as an essential component to the success of the region. I hope many of our local leaders and citizens watched this program as it will start the discussion and realization that mass transit is needed here more than anywhere else. After the program I had visions of Detroit as a future hub of transportation and the transportation industry. Makes you wonder why Bing & other area leaders don't offer huge tax incentives and cheap/free land & infrastructure for HSR manufacturers, windmill manufacturers, solar manufacturers and other green enterprises to help spur a new economic boom in Detroit.

[rjlj]

Bravo, excellent documentary. There was a lot to cover and they bounced around a lot. I wish this film was made 30 years ago and the people in charge of this region were forced to watch it at least twice a day. The powers at be over the past 50 years really screwed over future generations. It should be a law that any public elected official must have an urban planning degree before being eligible to run for office. I would love to see a follow up ten years from now on this story showing how things have gotten worse or improved.

[Mackinaw]

A very effective piece. Showed a decent understanding of Detroit and underscored how its history (in certain key respects) holds many of the clues to a successful future-- a future which embraces technology the way other countries do.

I like how it painted the building of the interstates as a national project everyone could get behind, and now we have the next logical (and more efficient) national project staring us in the face...will we respond and do it right, for the sake of a highly functioning economy and better cities, among other things, or will we keep the status quo.

Distribute the documentary widely and communicate with your politicians re: transit policy.

[Funaho]

I just finished watching this, and I have to say...wow. In terms of pure information content I knew most of this already from my own research, but seeing it all put together like this brought a tear to my eye. There was both sadness in seeing the decline of a once great city and hope for the future.

My main worry at this point is that we may, as a country, lack the vision and the political will to take the radical steps it's going to take to save ourselves from inevitable decline into a has-been economic power in the 21st century and beyond. We've become so wrapped up in short-term benefits and the "me me me" attitude that it's hard to convince people to pay for something that may not pay off for decades, and there doesn't seem to be anyone in charge who is willing to stick their neck out and say "this is what must be done." There are plenty of people here on DY and elsewhere who understand this, but our political climate is dominated by a noisy minority whose only concern is not paying for anything they don't directly use....at least until they lose their job and car and find they're screwed just like everyone else.

So here's my little brainstorming idea. How about "T" (transportation) party protests in favor of national infrastructure policy?

[mikeg19]

Absolutely excellent documentary. Was full of great information, some I knew, some I didn't. But I liked how they didn't just show fields and broken down buildings but also showed what the potential was for these areas. I hope they show it again so I can re-watch it.

[stasu1213]

Originally Posted by Gsgeorge

I agree, Lowell, the program was wonderfully produced and outlined all the questions and examples that come up when talking about transit in Detroit. I too think the light rail needs to run into Oakland County to be successful. Bridging the 8 Mile barrier seemed to be a theme in the program as an essential component to the success of the region. I hope many of our local leaders and citizens watched this program as it will start the discussion and realization that mass transit is needed here more than anywhere else. After the program I had visions of Detroit as a future hub of transportation and the transportation industry. Makes you wonder why Bing & other area leaders don't offer huge tax incentives and cheap/free land & infrastructure for HSR manufacturers, windmill manufacturers, solar manufacturers and other green enterprises to help spur a new economic boom in Detroit.

I wonder if corporations still have their hands in Bing;s and other local politican's back pocket. These corporations may not be for light rail. The first phase of light rail was to began in December of 2005. A smaller car was to utilize the same track that Amtrak was using. With all of the hype and fanfare about the opening day of the start of this mass transit; the plans was squashed a month before the train was to start running. No feasable explanation was given for the cancellation. It took private citizens such as Penske, Karmanos, and others to put up funds for the light rail up Woodward. Dave Bing didn't meet the deadline last year for the high speed train to pass through Detroit. I think that the grass root community will get this ball rolling and not Corporate entities such as Bing, Pugh, Graholm, and others

[exmotowner]

I got to watch it last night and was very impressed. Of course it just made me more homesick. I'm so glad to finally hear it from a reputable source that Detroit is finally going to get light rail. They could have had it back in the 70's if CY had not been a butt head and had to have the people mover. Congratulations Detroit! I'm very happy for you guys. Hopefully it will be the stimulus that moves the city forward. Now if EVERYONE and I do mean EVERYONE could get over that racism and city vs. suburb shit maybe the area can turn around.

[Detroit Stylin]

They could have had it back in the 70's if CY had not been a butt head and had to have the people mover.

That was the end result of idiocy on BOTH sides of 8 Mile....

[exmotowner]

Yes it was stylin. It was a major cluster fuck at the time. and like you said on BOTH sides!

[jt1]

Originally Posted by exmotowner

I got to watch it last night and was very impressed. Of course it just made me more homesick. I'm so glad to finally hear it from a reputable source that Detroit is finally going to get light rail. They could have had it back in the 70's if CY had not been a butt head and had to have the people mover. Congratulations Detroit! I'm very happy for you guys. Hopefully it will be the stimulus that moves the city forward. Now if EVERYONE and I do mean EVERYONE could get over that racism and city vs. suburb shit maybe the area can turn around.

Racism is one piece but it is just as much classism. Now that the economy in Michigan is beyond horrible the 'haves' seem a little more willing to listen.

Funny how economic reality forces people to work together.

[jt1]

They could have had it back in the 70's if CY had not been a butt head and had to have the people mover.

Incorrect. The people mover was built to take advantage of monies that were available and hope to get something moving.

The federal money was pulled in the 70s because they couldn't get enough communities (or all?) to agree to the plan. Too much of 'I don't want them to be able to get to my neighborhood' boogeyman bullshit.

[Detroitnerd]

I caught the second half and thought it was pretty good. I kept thinking, though, that they cut off Robin Boyle a bit too much. I know his feelings about light rail and Detroit are more complex than what they included.

[stasu1213]

Originally Posted by jt1

Incorrect. The people mover was built to take advantage of monies that were available and hope to get something moving.

The federal money was pulled in the 70s because they couldn't get enough communities (or all?) to agree to the plan. Too much of 'I don't want them to be able to get to my neighborhood' boogeyman bullshit.

You have many boogeyman catching the DOT busses in the city of Detroit. The violence that had occured on those busses in the past few years. Passengers have to be subjected to profanity from uncouth people on the busses. I am afraid at times when I catch the DOT. Imagine those type of hooligans catching the same mass transit as people who are going to work, whether to the office or the shop, and people who are transiting to school. I believe that the main problem was those boogeyman being on the same coach. Even back in the eighties. .

[Treelock]

I missed the last third of the program (I recorded it to finish watching later), which was excellent. But I also felt a sense of despair that extends well beyond the geography of Eight Mile Road.

The program used Spain and its investment in high-speed rail -- much of it powered by wind and solar farms -- as a reference point for what could happen. It included interviews with Spanish leaders who said for years, the country looked on in awe of the United States and its commitment to massive investments in national infrastructure networks.

That's great, but the fact is that network of roads, bridges and rails is now badly outdated and falling apart, and we don't have anything close to what Spain -- or China, or Japan or many of the EU nations for that matter -- have built. And every day now, we're reading about how lawmakers in Congress are effectively locked in a paralysis as partisan politics supersedes farsighted policymaking.

Yes, I know the stimulus plan is giving $8 billion to high-speed rail projects, but that's frankly a drop in the bucket compared to what's needed to catch up with emerging global superpowers. And in a toxic political environment where taxes have been thoroughly demonized and investment in the common good identified as the enemy of personal liberty, it's tough to see things getting better.

That's obviously a much broader picture than the M-1 project or any future additions to it that will have to happen in order to make a real impact on Detroit. I remain hopeful about this project, particularly because its construction will be privately financed. But it's only a starting point. Much more is needed.

So the question is this: Can southeast Michigan, which has never been noted for its regional cooperation, overcome its deeply entrenched divisions and mistrust and show the rest of the nation how to lead on transit?

[mikeg19]

Originally Posted by Treelock

So the question is this: Can southeast Michigan, which has never been noted for its regional cooperation, overcome its deeply entrenched divisions and mistrust and show the rest of the nation how to lead on transit?

Unfortunately I doubt it. Just look at the COBO expansion as a perfect recent example.

[professorscott]

This is nit-picky but I was a little sad to see the program paint Detroit's current transit system as worse than it is, and as it is it's pretty damned bad. In the early part of the show, they implied that on Woodward transit was infrequent and unreliable, whereas Woodward and Gratiot are the only two lines in Detroit and the 'burbs where it is actually reasonable to use the system.

The inclusion of Spain was to make the basic and very important point: if we as a nation do not upgrade our infrastructure, we are a has-been as an important country. There are many ways to lose your place on the world stage; Britain did it by winning two wars, ironically. We are doing it by letting the whole place go to the dogs. Look at any European city, and then look at American cities.

A lot is said about M1 Rail, which I know a good deal about; maybe too much has been said. But we have to start somewhere, and we can nit-pick M1 Rail to death (why the curb lane! why so many stops! why don't they work with the city! why! why! why!) or we can give it a chance to succeed and to try to get some damned positive vibe going on around here. I vote give it a chance. I only wish Mayor Bing would take this issue seriously, which he does not, so far as I have been able to tell. Where are you, Mr. Mayor? We need you here!

[rb336]

Originally Posted by Lowell

IMO, for Woodward to work the rail needs to run from the river to Pontiac. Well we are about to see and I hope the starter plan is a huge success.

the plans are for the M1 rail to be built in phases - first to Grand Blvd, using the outside lanes, then to 8 Mile (more than likely running in the center) and ultimately to M-59