Bing to cut bus services

[48202]

Thanks for the links, 48202. I didn't dig deep enough.

What would be your guess of the number of people that regularly use the bus system in any given year? Maybe we should use the number of households?

A good measure of the number of regular riders would be the number of monthly passes sold. I couldn't find this in my quick search, but perhaps you can if you dig a little more.

[stasu1213]

I still say that not cutting the busses will increase ridership. In this depression many people are losing their' cars being that they don't have a job to maintain the payments on their car note and insurance. People are almost forced to catch the bus to get where they have to go. I don't think the bus system is a drain on the city for you have a continual amount of people catching the bus on a regular basis than you have residents supporting anything else. With the increase of the bus service and ridership you will 1. have enough money coming into the system to maintain the busses and pay the drivers. 2. You will slow down the flight of residents exiting Detroit to the suburbs to live next to an entity they could just walk to instead of driving a car they don't have or waiting on a bus. New York, Chicago, Atlanta, and Washington DC have transportation systems that are doing well despite the economy because of ridership due to it is a reliable means of transportation. Detroit is no longer the motor capital of the world. Adapt to changes people

[48202]

3,562,701 is a monthly figure, not a yearly one. You need to multiply 71,254 by 12 or divide $2529 by 12 to get your final answer.

Retroit knows that 3,562,701 is a monthly figure. If the assumption were correct that every rider took 50 trips a month, then there would be 71,254 unique riders. Good math, bad assumption.

[stasu1213]

If the city have a 4.25 bus fare then let that be a 24hour bus pass so a rider could jump on or off the bus for $4.25 cents. Let the regular one way fare stay the same. Senior citizens should not pay but have an id or something. They had already paid enough so let us not take more from them.

[Retroit]

3,562,701 is a monthly figure, not a yearly one. You need to multiply 71,254 by 12 or divide $2529 by 12 to get your final answer.

So, 855,048 people use the bus system in Detroit? Isn't that the entire population?

Or, it only costs $211 per year per person to operate? Is it really this cheap?

statsu1213: "I don't think the bus system is a drain on the city for you have a continual amount of people catching the bus on a regular basis than you have residents supporting anything else."

So, if nearly everyone is continually using the system, shouldn't they all be continually paying for the full cost of it? How can a service be provided to nearly all of the residents if those residents are not able to pay for it? Someone has to pay for it. Or, is Detroit supposed to just keep borrowing to fund itself? Or is funding supposed to come from outside the city?

I just don't see the argument against raising fares to cover the cost.

[48202]

Stasu1213,

It simply is not possible to get enough passengers for DDOT to be self sufficient, and it is not possible to raise fares enough to make DDOT self sufficient. Therefore, DDOT needs funding from outside sources.

And the outside source [[the City of Detroit) does not have the funding to provide either.

[mwilbert]

I just don't see the argument against raising fares to cover the cost

There are no public transit systems in the US that cover their costs via fares. There are not even any transit systems in the US that cover their operating costs via fares, although NYC was reasonably close last time I looked. So there is nothing unusual about the DOT requiring a subsidy.

There are two main reasons why you would want to avoid raising fares. One is that the people who ride transit, certainly in Detroit, tend to be relatively poor, so raising their costs is disadvantaging the already disadvantaged. The second reason is that as you raise fares, you discourage ridership, and so you have to raise fares and/or cut service more, and you establish a vicious circle.

If you don't think transit is important, then you wouldn't care about that, because whatever equilibrium gets established would be OK with you. If you think that it is important, then you don't want to get into a spiral of ever-decreasing service, since you are reducing your provisioning of something important.

None of this means that if you don't have any money, you can spend it anyway; clearly Detroit has to make some very substantial cuts in something. But there is a reason why pretty much every city of any size feels the need to run some kind of transit system, and to subsidize it.

[Detroit_ExPat]

Wow, why didn't we think of that sooner? With our booming housing market and low unemployment rate, nobody should have any problem at all moving or changing jobs. What with the completely equitable distribution of jobs across the metro area, nobody should have any problems at all finding a job within easy walking distance of where they live. All this time we've been wasting money on a completely unnecessary public transit system when all we needed to do was force a few worthless, lazy poor people to get off their asses and find a job closer to home. You're a true visionary, Expat. You should run for president.

There's the wailing and knashing of teeth I was talking about. I don't suppose you read the parts where I said we are broke, and the coming cuts would be hurt people? Obviously, jobs are hard to come by. As I also noted, we're suffereing a depression around here. That's why services will be cut! There's no money.

I don't know if being able to do math necessarily qualifies me for the presidency, but thanks for your suggestion, anyway.

[Glowblue]

Lots of folks itt are pretty ignorant about macroeconomics. In a recession, cutting government services is the worst thing you can do for a lot of reasons. Raising taxes, though not ideal, is immensely preferable.

[Detroit_ExPat]

Lots of folks itt are pretty ignorant about macroeconomics. In a recession, cutting government services is the worst thing you can do for a lot of reasons. Raising taxes, though not ideal, is immensely preferable.

We don't need to discuss macroeconomics in this instance. Detroit is in a depression, and is coming undone. It is not a simple recession, where holding on until a turnaround is indicated.

[digitalvision]

The buses need to be folded into a regional system. It's mentally insane that SMART and DDOT are not one unit.

Mass transit doesn't make money - it's an investment by the government in business development and opportunities for residents so they can get to jobs and not cost the government MORE on the dole.

The city is going to be bankrupt anyway. I don't see how it does not go into bankruptcy because the unions aren't giving. And it'll probably be the best thing for the city. There's too many bad decisions the last 50 years to erase at this point.

P.S. - Bing is so safe in this election it's crazy. Barrow's been labeled "do not donate" by the business community - his campaign is over before it began as he has no fundraising apparatus or chance for fundraising.

[mwilbert]

We don't need to discuss macroeconomics in this instance. Detroit is in a depression, and is coming undone. It is not a simple recession, where holding on until a turnaround is indicated.

This is exactly correct. The national and global economy doesn't make this any easier, but if things were great elsewhere Detroit would still have a serious fiscal problem. I still think bankruptcy is probable, followed by massive layoffs and service cuts. I presume Mayor Bing will do what he can to avoid this, but his options are pretty limited.

[Retroit]

Assuming it costs $2529 per year per bus system user [[my calculation, yet to be disproven), why would someone, like myself, who spends approximately $1200 per year on a car [[$600 for gas, $400 for insurance, $97 for registration, $103 miscellaneous) have to subsidize the person who spends over twice as much on transportation?

[Sludgedaddy]

Since the general consensus on the above posts point to the conclusion that we are in a depression, I whole heartedly agree. As we slip deeper into a Third World like state of affairs, I agree also that drastic cuts are necessary.

Mayor Bing should reduce the number of busses used and adopt a system used in other countries such as India , Pakistan and Bangladesh. Reduce the fares and the number of busses and have passengers ride on the roof, clinging to the sides and fenders, etc. en masse.

[Tig3rzhark]

Should Bing decide to cut bus services, the mass exodus would just continue. If he's going to start somewhere, start at the top. Start at the administrators, then work downward. The citizens are already hurting enough and the services are piss-poor. Sell the city airport if you have to, few are using it.

I'm sure that Bing can find some ways to save money.

[Detroit_ExPat]

Since the general consensus on the above posts point to the conclusion that we are in a depression, I whole heartedly agree. As we slip deeper into a Third World like state of affairs, I agree also that drastic cuts are necessary.

Mayor Bing should reduce the number of busses used and adopt a system used in other countries such as India , Pakistan and Bangladesh. Reduce the fares and the number of busses and have passengers ride on the roof, clinging to the sides and fenders, etc. en masse.

I don't know that it makes sense to compare India, Pakistan and Bangladesh to Detroit. Those places have jobs and a growing economy.

[Rocko]

YES! Let's spend tons of money on a new and really rather nice transit center, just to trim back service even more! Sounds like a winning plan! I know there aren't many places left to cut, but I think cutting what remains of a transit system in Detroit is the wrong path to take. The people of the city need this system, and what with the economy the way it is, now is certainly not the time. Perhaps if DDOT sold some of its unused land [[or those natural gas "trolleys" which continue to languish behind Central Maintenance on E. Warren), or consolidated some of it's garages or offices, money savings could be achieved, at least partially. I think people could suppose a small fare increase, perhaps a quarter a ride. And I liked the above-mentioned idea of creating a 24-hour fare card, even if for $5, which would allow people and unlimited number of rides during that time.

[Tig3rzhark]

When I went to LA, it only cost $5 to ride the train and bus all day.

It costs $49.50 currently for a monthly regional pass here.

Why can't DDOT & SMART just start offering regional day and weekly passes for those that visit the city?

They could issue refillable cards like the TAP, and the Metro card.

[Stosh]

YES! Let's spend tons of money on a new and really rather nice transit center, just to trim back service even more! Sounds like a winning plan! I know there aren't many places left to cut, but I think cutting what remains of a transit system in Detroit is the wrong path to take. The people of the city need this system, and what with the economy the way it is, now is certainly not the time. Perhaps if DDOT sold some of its unused land [[or those natural gas "trolleys" which continue to languish behind Central Maintenance on E. Warren), or consolidated some of it's garages or offices, money savings could be achieved, at least partially. I think people could suppose a small fare increase, perhaps a quarter a ride. And I liked the above-mentioned idea of creating a 24-hour fare card, even if for $5, which would allow people and unlimited number of rides during that time.

Who will buy the unused land? Who will buy the trolleys? Not in this economy. Maybe someday.

Regarding consolidation, I'd suppose that the DDOT unions would have to weigh in on the feasability of that concept.

I think fare increases are in the future. Also TRU is proposing a 1/2 to 1 cent sales tax for public transportation. I don't know the chances for that. I like the 24 hour pass for 5 idea, it's done elsewhere.

[stasu1213]

Let us take a closer look at the transportation system in detroit. Since the streetcar was discontinued in 1959 the transportation system had went downhill. In the 1960s, 70s, 80s, and early nineties when the city was doing much better than the condition it is in now, the transportation system, DDOT, was always neglected, when it comes to making services convenient to riders. So what if new buses were introduced in the late 70's with air conditions but when the air conditioner had broken down the passengers almost suffocated for the windows couldn't open or were not design to open. 1986 was the year that the more boxier busses were introduced. The windows could open but they did not have air conditioners. The 90s introduced a boxier bus with both but the busses kept breaking down. Leaning over to one side like a low rider. Busses had always been slow since the 1970's. DSR is an acronym for "Damn Slow Ride". Could anyone answer me on why Detroit had never gotten mass transit? Why haven't detroit have express busses to pick up downtown and go on the freeways to the 5 existing malls since downtown stores were moving out there? I still think everything was set up to make the riders feel so frustrated that a car is needed. I know Detroit is in a depression. The bus system in Detroit has been in one for 20 years.

[mwilbert]

Assuming it costs $2529 per year per bus system user [[my calculation, yet to be disproven), why would someone, like myself, who spends approximately $1200 per year on a car [[$600 for gas, $400 for insurance, $97 for registration, $103 miscellaneous) have to subsidize the person who spends over twice as much on transportation?

Because those costs don't appear to include the cost of buying and maintaining a car? Most people don't find those costs negligible.

Also, because the person isn't spending that much, that is how much it costs--that difference is the subsidy.If a pass costs $50/month, they are only paying $600/yr, which is quite a bit less than what you are spending. If we could subsidize them by giving them cars instead maybe that would be cheaper. I doubt it, but at least that would be the correct comparison.

[Stosh]

Not too long ago, the State of Michigan assembled a group of people to study transportation problems in the State of Michigan. This group, the Transportation Funding Task Force, produced a Final Draft document with pointed reccomendations regarding a comprehensive transportation investment plan.

It's been posted here before, I think.
http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,1607,...2856--,00.html

Of interest is the funding choices in the section below. A 1 cent increase in the sales tax would yield 1.3 million dollars in additional funding for transportation. Other options are available as well.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/md...8_255511_7.pdf

Of course the tax proposal will run into problems. A possible solution would be bundling the transportation needs with what is increasingly a problem for every municipality in the state, police and fire funding. That would make the sales tax potentially palatable for the majority of the people in the state, and potentially eliminating any outstate resentment for any percieved unfairness.

Of course, you don't see any action to put anything on the ballot for this. This is, after all, Michigan.

[stasu1213]

I think the bus pass issue is a good one. It would be cheaper having one for 50 dollars than putting 20 dollars a week in the gas tank which is 80 dollars a month. Insurance in Detroit is sky high and probably costs 200 to 300 dollars a month for a new car. Car notes will be the same which would be 150 to 400 a month. Don't forget the oil change, every 3 to 6 months. The tune ups and the extra cost of catalyte converter, tires and wheels replacements when 6 times out of 10 your's will become stolen from your car. Oh yeah, don't forget the dealership's mechanics who give themselves a tip by overcharging you for repairs to keep themselves and the dealerships or shops in business. It is cheaper having the 50 dollar a month bus pass in some cases.

[stasu1213]

which had let the automobile industry manipulate lawmakers decisions

[Glowblue]

We don't need to discuss macroeconomics in this instance. Detroit is in a depression, and is coming undone. It is not a simple recession, where holding on until a turnaround is indicated.

Heh, get a load of this guy. "Don't discuss macroeconomics! Don't you know we're in a macroeconomic crisis?"