Woodward/M1 Rail -- DDOT reach accord on light rail

[iddude313]

this is the "Greatest Hits" from Houston's METRO.
I think many people just don't pay attention.
They just have too many things to do instead like texting, or talking on the phone or eating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV2rdGX4JYc

[apbest]

It's sad to watch the region’s future be sacrificed by incompetence just because said incompetence is able do something doesn’t mean that they should. Of course this is more the status quo.

So operating under your assumption that this project is more of the same, ie "status quo"...let me make sure I understand how you think this region's been operating lately:

Regional captains of industry engaging in much need economic development in the City in a philanthropic manner by donating tens of millions, without a ROI, while coordinating with state government and regional entities [[DOTGS) for mass transit.

Sure Russix, that really sounds like the status quo in metro Detroit for the last twenty years

If anything your mentality has been the status quo towards transit and government in Metro Detroit...that is changing, especially now that we have the business element getting it done. so I agree, out with the status quo

[archytech]

regarding the youtube link...Is that an argument for not having center lane trains? Sheesh.

This new alignment will suck for bicyclist as the rails can be difficult to manuver around.

[Russix]

So operating under your assumption that this project is more of the same, ie "status quo"...let me make sure I understand how you think this region's been operating lately:

Regional captains of industry engaging in much need economic development in the City in a philanthropic manner by donating tens of millions, without a ROI, while coordinating with state government and regional entities [[DOTGS) for mass transit.

Sure Russix, that really sounds like the status quo in metro Detroit for the last twenty years

If anything your mentality has been the status quo towards transit and government in Metro Detroit...that is changing, especially now that we have the business element getting it done. so I agree, out with the status quo

Regional captains of industry who have chosen to completely ignore what the public has expressed its needs are for mass transit are huge philanthropist? I think you mean investing tens of millions for a system that will generate ROI for them while handing off the operating costs of the system to the public who had no input in its design. Metro Detroit is building another people mover, that’s 20 years old, show me this change you speak of? I think your blind acceptance of “progress� is ass-backwards and absurd especially since you’ve chosen to support a system that’s equivalent in speed and more limited in range than the bus service that’s currently operating.

[apbest]

What expressed needs is the M1 line trampling? It's just moving to the curb rather than the median; not to mention the fact that more frequent stops with a "portland streetcar"-esque attitude is probably better for public interest, which will converge will a faster commuter oriented DOTGS [[making it the best of both worlds). The crux of your argument is what the 10 people who cared to show up to any of these public input meetings had to say, which somehow qualifies as the M1 team completely disregarding public opinion. Those meetings will provide the M1 team with a guideline of how to align the downtown option, hopefully they'll take head. Regardless, it's a trade-off, they dont have to hold these hearings but they're able to get their project done years before the public process could.

[rugbyman]

Did no one else catch this?

"North of the M1 Rail’s terminus at the New Center area, the line is expected to converge into a higher speed center-of-street system that moves at a faster commuter rate with fewer stops, Cullen said . . .

The cars, which will be a hybrid between modern street cars and traditional light rail, will typically carry 100-125 people, and more than 200 during major events such as ballgames. "

Sounds to me like it's a pretty pragmatic solution. Take a deep breath.

[iheartthed]

this is the "Greatest Hits" from Houston's METRO.
I think many people just don't pay attention.
They just have too many things to do instead like texting, or talking on the phone or eating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV2rdGX4JYc

Exactly why Detroit's system would ideally be grade separated.

[Russix]

What expressed needs is the M1 line trampling? It's just moving to the curb rather than the median; not to mention the fact that more frequent stops with a "portland streetcar"-esque attitude is probably better for public interest, which will converge will a faster commuter oriented DOTGS [[making it the best of both worlds). The crux of your argument is what the 10 people who cared to show up to any of these public input meetings had to say, which somehow qualifies as the M1 team completely disregarding public opinion. Those meetings will provide the M1 team with a guideline of how to align the downtown option, hopefully they'll take head. Regardless, it's a trade-off, they dont have to hold these hearings but they're able to get their project done years before the public process could.

First off, since you've repeated this twice. It's DTOGS, Detroit Transit Options for Growth Study. Now that you've exemplified your ignorance on the subject matter maybe some of the myths you've digested about M1 can be explored. DDOT, in working with URS conducted extensive research and analysis into which corridor should be first developed for addressing the region's desperate need for transit improvement. I can not confirm or deny your wild accusation on the number of participants attending planning meeting. What I can state is that DTOGS designed a system based on real transit data that would substantially improve transit service for the city and also provide a solid model for potentially expanding to a regional service. Copying from what URS has already built to meet these needs in other cities, the Woodward alignment was developed after it was selected to be the first. DTOGS design looks decisively into the future, its fast, has a large capacity[[plus bike capacity), and screams regionalism. It’s comparable to the Portland’s MAX Light Rail. In order to achieve the greatest operating efficiency, the system needs to run in its own right of way, logically in the center. In order to reduce travel time it’s necessary to limit stops to key heavy traffic stations where riders may transfer to a bus or walk the last ½ mile to their final destination. This is the most practical design for a transit corridor that spans from Downtown Detroit to Royal Oak. People would not have to drive downtown and park next to the M1 rail station just to go around the small geographic area between 6am & 11pm. People who actually live and work along Woodward would gain a real functional improvement in transit service over a slower-moving, limited distance circulator as the Portland Street car was designed for between the Max Light rail stations[[like our People Mover.) The Portland Street car operates at around 6.5 mph whereas walking speed is 2.5-3.5 mph http://portlandtransport.com/archive...st_is_tha.html.
When these facts begin to enlighten you, you will most likely wonder: Why do I want something that’s not an improvement in function, only an improvement in aesthetics?
Why do I so blindly trust the motives of private businessmen as to what is best for me and the city over what a public entity clearly demonstrated as the best option? And why do I believe that a system that runs in traffic on lower Woodward in potential grid lock traffic will ever amount to being useful?

The M1 team has not considered any of DTOGS design requirements. This would raise the cost of their cheap gimmick that they’ve hastily thrown together just to situate themselves to dictate station layouts and routing. The streetcar track will not be built to accommodate the heavier LRT vehicles and the excess of stations and poor routing will probably deter the faster commuter sections from ever being built. The excitement of getting M1 Rail faster will be a sour honeymoon as its poor planning and limitations foul the future.

[BShea]

DDOT, in working with URS conducted extensive research and analysis into which corridor should be first developed for addressing the region's desperate need for transit improvement.

You do know URS is doing the M1 Rail line, right?

Why do I so blindly trust the motives of private businessmen as to what is best for me and the city over what a public entity clearly demonstrated as the best option?

These "captains of industry" need people to come downtown to patronize their businesses and for their employees to use to get to work. How is that different than the public need?

Why do you blindly trust DDOT to do something more efficiently? Are you employed by DDOT or the city? Are you a traffic engineer or urban planner? I'm curious to know, because I honestly don't know.

The M1 team has not considered any of DTOGS design requirements.

I know for a fact that statement is 100% wrong.

This would raise the cost of their cheap gimmick that they’ve hastily thrown together just to situate themselves to dictate station layouts and routing.

It's been 2-years in the making, and is still ongoing. How is that hasty? How is it a gimmick? Because you don't like it? I'm curious. I can't see Roger Penske, Dan Gilbert, Mike Ilitch and Pete Karmanos spending millions of their own money on something that won't work ... especially on a project that's designed to fit into the three-county regional plan, and was shepherded by John Hertel for 18 months.

Whatever the merits of DTOG, it's simply never going to happen. The city has no matching money, and there's zero guarantee it would get the federal New Starts grants, either. Two years ago, NY City got 40% of New Start funding, leaving far more politically powerful U.S. cities vying for the remaining scraps. DTOG exists on paper, and nothing more.

I simply fail to understand the noxious backlash against the business community and foundations spending $125 million -- when no one else can, especially the nearly bankrupt city -- to jumpstart regional mass transit by paying for the first part of the line. Is it just jaded urban hispster angst at "capitalism," or something else?

[rugbyman]

I think you know the answer to that one, amigo- you've been around long enough.

[Russix]

DDOT, in working with URS conducted extensive research and analysis into which corridor should be first developed for addressing the region's desperate need for transit improvement.

You do know URS is doing the M1 Rail line, right?

Yes. And in their experience, if M1 was the best solution, they would have designed it the first place, not hacked it together later from requirements of private interest.

Why do I so blindly trust the motives of private businessmen as to what is best for me and the city over what a public entity clearly demonstrated as the best option?

These "captains of industry" need people to come downtown to patronize their businesses and for their employees to use to get to work. How is that different than the public need?

Why do you blindly trust DDOT to do something more efficiently? Are you employed by DDOT or the city? Are you a traffic engineer or urban planner? I'm curious to know, because I honestly don't know.

“These "captains of industry" need people to come downtown to patronize their businesses and for their employees to use to get to work. How is that different than the public need?�

“….come downtown…� After already driving into the city, I don’t see the logic for individuals to hop a streetcar to move up and down Woodward. This works with the people mover due to the somewhat density of downtown. Even if you added the faster commuter later, how many people are going to be willing to take a commuter LRT for 20 minutes from 11 mile only to hop on a M1 Streetcar for the remaining 20 minute trip downtown? That’s 40 minutes running without any congestion [[you have to add traffic congestion factors into your beloved streetcar). How can you look at the design of M1 and not immediately realize that it’s basically a bus. How is duplicating an existing system at the sacrifice of an actual improvement good for the public need?

“Why do you blindly trust DDOT to do something more efficiently?�

DDOT wouldn’t build an M1 streetcar because it’s entirely stupid to solicit for public funding for a complete duplicate of what is already provided by current bus services. They designed something that’s better then what they already provide. M1 is just a really expensive bus and I don’t care how great it is that some “captain of industry� somewhere who will never ride it is willing to throw money at it when it’s at the sacrifice of a transit design the region so desperately needs.

“Are you employed by DDOT or the city? Are you a traffic engineer or urban planner? I'm curious to know, because I honestly don't know.�

It’s not that complex. I merely ride public transit daily to work [[yes up and down Woodward lots). I take it once you come down from your highrise you hop in your car and motor off into the bliss. And that while looking down below out the window that it’s too scary to contemplate getting on the bus with average citizens but you’d be more comfortable riding in a special streetcar built just for you.

The M1 team has not considered any of DTOGS design requirements.

I know for a fact that statement is 100% wrong.

The M1 plans are top secret. Plus their design completely destroys any of the efficiencies gained from DTOGS so statements about how they could share track are rather pointless. I’m glad you can be 100% on something that no one has ever actually seen. M1 Rail right or wrong for you?

This would raise the cost of their cheap gimmick that they’ve hastily thrown together just to situate themselves to dictate station layouts and routing.

It's been 2-years in the making, and is still ongoing. How is that hasty? How is it a gimmick? Because you don't like it? I'm curious. I can't see Roger Penske, Dan Gilbert, Mike Ilitch and Pete Karmanos spending millions of their own money on something that won't work ... especially on a project that's designed to fit into the three-county regional plan, and was shepherded by John Hertel for 18 months.

Whatever the merits of DTOG, it's simply never going to happen. The city has no matching money, and there's zero guarantee it would get the federal New Starts grants, either. Two years ago, NY City got 40% of New Start funding, leaving far more politically powerful U.S. cities vying for the remaining scraps. DTOG exists on paper, and nothing more.

I simply fail to understand the noxious backlash against the business community and foundations spending $125 million -- when no one else can, especially the nearly bankrupt city -- to jumpstart regional mass transit by paying for the first part of the line. Is it just jaded urban hispster angst at "capitalism," or something else?

They are not even looking at the long-range regional picture. “especially on a project that's designed to fit into the three-county regional plan� Are you serious? This project is completely detrimental to all future possible implementations of regional transit. This will be looked at as a prototype concept for regional transit. When you start soliciting tax payers in the tri-county area to pitch in, they’re going to take a good hard look at what you’ve set up on Woodward. If it’s fast and efficient it will sell. If it’s merely a fancy bus, it won’t. Example: People Mover. This backlash is fueled by the fact that in the effort to advance their private interest in tiny geographical area, they are potentially destroying the prospect of real mass transit in the region. You do not get a jumpstart by building a circulator service where a commuter service should be. You get a problem. If private interest was so concerned with helping the region, they would fund the construction of the “Woodward Common Segment� to show the potential benefit of mass transit. Then when the region decides that it really wants it, it’s already in place ready to expand. Not starting from scratch and burying yet another set of rails under the pavement. I don’t think questioning the motives of a handful of wealthy people who for some reason are about to embark on a public works project is jaded urban hispster angst at "capitalism�. I’m merely debating the argument with a reporter who has close ties to Detroit’s business community.

[rugbyman]

[rugbyman]

Bill, your article only briefly mentioned in a blurb at the bottom that the vehicles would be a hybrid between a street car and "traditional" light rail. Any more info about what that would look like? Top speeds, etc? Are the vehicles off the shelf, or is this something they're cobbling together?

I'm sure some people might drop their opposition to mere passive disdain if it turns out that the vehicles could potentially reach somewhere close to the magic 50mph LRT apparently offers. Some, but surely not all.

[sg9018]

Well the Free Press has a rendering of the M1 Rail
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/s...R&Profile=1017
Article here,
http://www.freep.com/article/2009052...Rail+rendering

[DetroitDad]

I think that it will make Detroit the only place in Michigan with a desirable transit system. People will want to live near that, and that has been a huge point made at transit meetings. It is important to note that as dense as parts of Midtown is, 2/3rds of the residential space is completely vacant. They are predicting that this M-1 Line will help fill the empty space in Midtown, and have a significant impact on Downtown and New Center. This line will also make it significantly harder for Downtown surface lots and the parking cartel to stay in business, as they have already recently taken huge hits from the casinos, new parking meters and streetscapes, and market over saturation from Ilitch and more secure parking garages.

DDOT bus service have to horrible of a history. No one is going to move into Midtown excited about living near a smelly, unsafe, and infrequent bus line that may or may not be there in a few years.

[dtowncitylover]

The M1 team has not considered any of DTOGS design requirements.

I know for a fact that statement is 100% wrong.

How do you 100% know?


I do like the rendering, not like the DTOGS video, but the first visual from M1 Rail.

[apbest]

“These "captains of industry" need people to come downtown to patronize their businesses and for their employees to use to get to work. How is that different than the public need?�

Ya these people's employees all live in midtown

I dont understand where your hostility is coming from Russix. A full line to 8 mile with more pedestrian stops before new center is a perfect comprise. Personally, as a resident of the city, I thought the original alignment had too few stop before new center and would hinder development near 75 especiallly once midtown-lower woodward became viable.

Regardlesss of how you articulate your arguement Russiex, M1 team will have it their way because of private sources and a governemnt that should rightfully do what ut can to get this built regardless of what some "fool"s say. Either way theres nothing you can do because it's a state-right-of-way

[THE FURY 617]

The rendering of the M1 Rail does looks nice and the stations too but why they want to set the trains to the curves? I'll be a lot better if they set the trains in the center of Woodward. The whole curve thing will be causing accidents when it comes down to right turns.We'll have to see when the ground breaking starts but still a bad idea!!!

[dtowncitylover]

We also should remember that the original plan for Detroit was that "Downtown" was supposed to be from current downtown all the way to New Center. If you know Chicago's El well, the Red Line has a one stop after another downtown, so it's not like theres too many stops. Streetcars usually have stops that are closer than the LRT.

[Russix]

“These "captains of industry" need people to come downtown to patronize their businesses and for their employees to use to get to work. How is that different than the public need?”

Ya these people's employees all live in midtown

I dont understand where your hostility is coming from Russix. A full line to 8 mile with more pedestrian stops before new center is a perfect comprise. Personally, as a resident of the city, I thought the original alignment had too few stop before new center and would hinder development near 75 especiallly once midtown-lower woodward became viable.

Regardlesss of how you articulate your arguement Russiex, M1 team will have it their way because of private sources and a governemnt that should rightfully do what ut can to get this built regardless of what some "fool"s say. Either way theres nothing you can do because it's a state-right-of-way

I was quoting BShea's statement “These "captains of industry" need people to come downtown to patronize their businesses and for their employees to use to get to work. How is that different than the public need?” I hope the bullet squeezed between the toes as you just shot yourself in the foot. Woodward is not a feasible location for a streetcar, it was superseded by the bus about 50 years ago. Much of the same arguments made then are still relevant today. For what its costs your not actually improving anything. Then to top it off your doing it at the sacrifice of an actual improvement. A “fool” is someone who is ignorant and allows others to exploit this ignorance to their advantage. I think I will use this term as I start to write local churches, community groups and labor unions about how a group of elites are building a transit system for primarily white middle-class tourists while simultaneously destroying a plan that their own transit agency designed to actually improve their quality of life. They once tried to run heavy freight rail down Woodward in the mid to late 19th century, the citizens ripped up the tracks themselves. If the M1 team runs afoul with the general public they will realize the error of their ways. I’d hate to be identified as one the bad institutions that really fucked up mass transit in Detroit. Hopefully private interest that has so blatantly ignored public input will pay a little more attention to a public negative reaction.

[dtowncitylover]

"A “fool” is someone who is ignorant and allows others to exploit this ignorance to their advantage. I think I will use this term as I start to write local churches, community groups and labor unions about how a group of elites are building a transit system for primarily white middle-class tourists while simultaneously destroying a plan that their own transit agency designed to actually improve their quality of life."

I was quite taken aback by this statement. I don't see how this is primarlily going to be used for "white middle-class tourists", I find that to be quite an exaggerated generalization and personally offended. So every suburbanite coming downtown for a game is now a "white-middle class tourist"? That is very devisive. Maybe we should be somewhat glad that some "elites" are willing to pay to improve transit in the Metro area. You think the Boston Brahmin wanna pay for the T? Or residents of the Upper East Side wanna pay for the Subway? Or North Shores residents wanna pay for the El?

It just so happens that the area's population resides outside of the city. We need new ways to link the city and suburbs, sorry if it just so happens that the suburbs are predominantly white and the city black.

[Russix]

"A “fool” is someone who is ignorant and allows others to exploit this ignorance to their advantage. I think I will use this term as I start to write local churches, community groups and labor unions about how a group of elites are building a transit system for primarily white middle-class tourists while simultaneously destroying a plan that their own transit agency designed to actually improve their quality of life."

I was quite taken aback by this statement. I don't see how this is primarlily going to be used for "white middle-class tourists", I find that to be quite an exaggerated generalization and personally offended. So every suburbanite coming downtown for a game is now a "white-middle class tourist"? That is very devisive. Maybe we should be somewhat glad that some "elites" are willing to pay to improve transit in the Metro area. You think the Boston Brahmin wanna pay for the T? Or residents of the Upper East Side wanna pay for the Subway? Or North Shores residents wanna pay for the El? .

Just take another look at the picture. http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.d...W=320&Border=0

We have a large station platform placed right in front of the music hall. Yet down the street where two east-west bus routes converge on Mack/MLK there is no obvious large glowing white beacon [[no pun intended) signaling a station stop. So after really looking at this picture, is M1 rail being oriented to interconnect with existing systems to compliment the local transportation architecture or carve itself out as an entirely separately classed entity? I’m sorry of the obvious fact that most of the people driving into the city to go to a game are of middle-class status and of European decent. I don’t make the rules; I’m just saying what I see. It’s funny that all of the transit systems you’ve mentioned are larger commuter system and not smaller circulator systems.

It just so happens that the area's population resides outside of the city. We need new ways to link the city and suburbs, sorry if it just so happens that the suburbs are predominantly white and the city black.

Yes, Yes, and Yes! The fastest way to achieve this goal is to lay the foundation for a commuter system. I’ve come to a consensus that it’s not critically important how many stops M1 can put up every stones throw as long as it’s placed in the center with a ROW. Most of the faults and limitations of this initial segment can be fixed later as long as this critical design principle can be adhered to.

[rugbyman]

[dtowncitylover]

Just take another look at the picture. http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.d...W=320&Border=0

We have a large station platform placed right in front of the music hall. Yet down the street where two east-west bus routes converge on Mack/MLK there is no obvious large glowing white beacon [[no pun intended) signaling a station stop. So after really looking at this picture, is M1 rail being oriented to interconnect with existing systems to compliment the local transportation architecture or carve itself out as an entirely separately classed entity? I’m sorry of the obvious fact that most of the people driving into the city to go to a game are of middle-class status and of European decent. I don’t make the rules; I’m just saying what I see. It’s funny that all of the transit systems you’ve mentioned are larger commuter system and not smaller circulator systems.



Yes, Yes, and Yes! The fastest way to achieve this goal is to lay the foundation for a commuter system. I’ve come to a consensus that it’s not critically important how many stops M1 can put up every stones throw as long as it’s placed in the center with a ROW. Most of the faults and limitations of this initial segment can be fixed later as long as this critical design principle can be adhered to.

Alright, I see what your saying. But this isn't supposed to be a small little train project, but the beginning of a larger metro transportation plan that will include the 3 major counties. The LRT that it will connect to will be a major commuter train intended for workers who live in the suburbs to take to New Center or downtown and for those people who live along Woodward to go down too.

[BShea]

How do you 100% know?

Because I've seen the plans. That said, the M1 folks have said nothing is set in stone, and the project is still being designed and engineered.

Apparently for while middle-class tourists. Because, you know, lots of those folks come downtown during the day in the middle of the week ...

Bill, your article only briefly mentioned in a blurb at the bottom that the vehicles would be a hybrid between a street car and "traditional" light rail. Any more info about what that would look like? Top speeds, etc? Are the vehicles off the shelf, or is this something they're cobbling together?

I was told they'll be able to run at slow speeds while co-mingled with traffic in the core downtown, then be able to reach 50+mph for commuter runs north of New Center. But again, much of this is still being worked out. Also, the cars would be ordered to piggyback off a much larger order by another city [[such as when NY City orders 500 cars for something, etc). Otherwise, the wait for custom-made cars is something like 3-5 years, I was told.

Yes. And in their experience, if M1 was the best solution, they would have designed it the first place, not hacked it together later from requirements of private interest.

1. There is no "best" solution that will please everyone.
2. Private interest is going to pay for something people will use.
3. He who pays gets to set the rules sometimes. Government is 100% unable to provide the service because it's basically bankrupt. So, the private sector is stepping in to build the first leg of a larger system. Otherwise, we get NOTHING. I'll take that. Hell, it's not like these trains are going to run from Dan Gilbert's driveway just to his office.

I take it once you come down from your highrise you hop in your car and motor off into the bliss. And that while looking down below out the window that it’s too scary to contemplate getting on the bus with average citizens but you’d be more comfortable riding in a special streetcar built just for you.

Your argument fails, so your resort to this? Some sort of limp class warfare drivel that I'm too elite to ride with the hoi polloi and proles?

Um, I walk to work and bike, driving when I know I need to be out and about for my job during the day. I bike all over downtown. Gee, I guess that makes me more green and more caring of Mother Earth, who you choose to continue to rape with your heartless use of nasty, dirty buses.

You've turned me into a raving hippie liberal!