Downtown Retail

[Bearinabox]

Originally Posted by DetroitTitan

Wow, I've never seen so many tangents. Okay, in my opinion Light Rail in Detroit and the Metro area would just not be feasible.

Good thing the DTOGS folks don't care about your opinion.

There is no density!

First off, this is horseshit. Less-dense cities all over the country have had great success with their light rail lines. Second off, light rail is one of the most effective proven ways to increase density along a given corridor.

The best options, Woodward, are some of the Metro's most dense corridors. (doesn't the foot of Woodward in the CBD have the largest concentration of jobs in the Metro Area?). But still look at Royal Oak, it is centered off from Woodward (not by a large distance but the RO like the rest of the Metro is awash with a moat of single family homes), if Pontiac was still a large urban city it maybe more likely, but the downtown Pontiac is derelict, and the city is depleted.

Royal Oak and Pontiac both exist because of rail transit. A rail line would make them more viable, not less.

I like Pontiac, it's got some awesome architecture, and interesting spots (not to mention a large amount of "Detroit Style" opportunity), but still. Density growth around stations for a train would be possible down the road, but it is kinda which came first the chicken or the egg argument, like the rest of Detroit for that matter.

The density sure as fuck ain't gonna come first. You can sit on your ass and wait for it for the next fifty years if you want, but that isn't much of an economic development strategy.

You need density, the thought that people would drive to a station and park to get on a train is ridiciulous.

I guess you should tell SMART to stop running their park-and-ride routes then.

Say I live out in Rochester or some North Oakland Metro community, why would I drive on I-75 or Rochester Road to get to station is stupid and annoying, why not just drive the rest of the way?? There was some stat that you you can get to Detroit from anywhere in the Metro for less than 45 minutes or something like that. Our Interstates, Freeways, and Expressways, are far to fast and convenient.

Plenty of people ride the SMART bus. Plenty more would love to see a rail line. You don't have to get every last Oakland Township resident out of their car to make it work. Besides, parking is a pain in the ass downtown, and it's hard to get in and out when there are events going on.

Buses would be the only feasible option

This has me honestly baffled.

(and they would not be "reinventing the wheel," (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impleme...#United_States) cities all over the world employ the cheaper alternative to trains. They could be green buses, they buses do not equate to pollution anymore with alternatives be implemented (propane, biofuels, ethanol, electric, hybrid). Plus we wouldn't need NEARLY the amount of capital for a light rail/ train system that we would need for a rapid bus system.

Fuck it, I'm sick of explaining this every six weeks. Google the DTOGS study or look up any one of the ten gazillion other threads on this. Or don't. I don't care.

[dtowncitylover]

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

Good thing the DTOGS folks don't care about your opinion.First off, this is horseshit. Less-dense cities all over the country have had great success with their light rail lines. Second off, light rail is one of the most effective proven ways to increase density along a given corridor.Royal Oak and Pontiac both exist because of rail transit. A rail line would make them more viable, not less.The density sure as fuck ain't gonna come first. You can sit on your ass and wait for it for the next fifty years if you want, but that isn't much of an economic development strategy.I guess you should tell SMART to stop running their park-and-ride routes then.Plenty of people ride the SMART bus. Plenty more would love to see a rail line. You don't have to get every last Oakland Township resident out of their car to make it work. Besides, parking is a pain in the ass downtown, and it's hard to get in and out when there are events going on.This has me honestly baffled. Fuck it, I'm sick of explaining this every six weeks. Google the DTOGS study or look up any one of the ten gazillion other threads on this. Or don't. I don't care.

* Standing Ovation*

[wolverine]

Agreed, bearinabox nailed it. All through history major mass transit systems from elevated rail lines to even subways have been built out as speculative projects with all the urban density following right behind. New systems create demand, they've always had.

[sumas]

Kind of sad really, easy access to transit spawns urban sprawl.

[stasu1213]

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

These two statements contradict each other. Urban bus systems on the scale of Detroit's are almost by definition unreliable. It's kind of funny how every few weeks someone comes on here with a "better" solution than rail transit that they made up themselves, evidence from every other large city on the face of the planet notwithstanding. We don't need to reinvent the wheel here.

It is true that we don't need to reinvent the wheel but the city could run that wheel better until we get a rail system. It will take a couple of years to get this rail system up and running in this city. What are we going to do until then. We could improve the bus system by making the busses more reliable and rider friendly. That would increase ridership.

[stasu1213]

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

Good thing the DTOGS folks don't care about your opinion.First off, this is horseshit. Less-dense cities all over the country have had great success with their light rail lines. Less Dense cities don't have GM headquarter in their downtownSecond off, light rail is one of the most effective proven ways to increase density along a given corridor.Royal Oak and Pontiac both exist because of rail transit. A rail line would make them more viable, not less.The density sure as fuck ain't gonna come first. You can sit on your ass and wait for it for the next fifty years if you want, but that isn't much of an economic development strategy.I guess you should tell SMART to stop running their park-and-ride routes then.Plenty of people ride the SMART bus. Plenty more would love to see a rail line. You don't have to get every last Oakland Township resident out of their car to make it work. Besides, parking is a pain in the ass downtown, and it's hard to get in and out when there are events going on.This has me honestly baffled. Fuck it, I'm sick of explaining this every six weeks. Google the DTOGS study or look up any one of the ten gazillion other threads on this. Or don't. I don't care.

I am sorry that you have a hard time understanding

[royce]

Retail downtown has to first cater to those who live downtown. That's a given. The basics need to be covered first: groceries, toiletries, sundries, and certain services like dry cleaning. Beyond that, anything else is a hard sell because the population downtown and the surrounding area isn't there. If you could get more people living in the CBD, Brush Park, and Midtown/Cass Corridor, then it might be possible to bring in a national chain like Macy's. However, I doubt, that that would be enough population for a Macy's store. Department stores rely on support from all over the region. People will travel from Pontiac, Birmingham, Ferndale, and Detroit to go to the Macy's at Oakland Mall. If you put a Macy's downtown, you probably won't get most of those people, including many of those from Detroit. Besides, department stores aren't as popular with suburbanites as they used to be so why expect one in downtown Detroit?

Now, if you want to bring a national chain store to downtown Detroit, it will probably have to be one that can't be found anywhere else in the region or even in the state for that matter. An IKEA on the Hudson's site, with the underground parking, might have had a slight chance since it would be the only IKEA in the area. Downtown Hudson's was unique for so long because it was the only Hudson's in the state of Michigan. However, once Hudson's built Northland the uniqueness was over and the writing was on the wall for the downtown store.

Again, retail downtown has to cater to those who already live downtown. Increase the population and you can add more retail. Expecting retail to grow from customers living outside of the CBD is not going to happen unless the retail is unique. Personally, I would love to see a Target on the Hudson's site. It's the only national chain I think would have a chance downtown because I know a lot of people in the city who love Target, including myself.

[jonathanlivingstonseagull]

Originally Posted by royce

Now, if you want to bring a national chain store to downtown Detroit, it will probably have to be one that can't be found anywhere else in the region or even in the state for that matter. An IKEA on the Hudson's site, with the underground parking, might have had a slight chance since it would be the only IKEA in the area.

Except there is already an IKEA in Canton.

[ghettopalmetto]

Hudson's never made money because it was "unique". It made money for decades because its product mix appealed to the people who lived and worked in close proximity.

Making money = Dollars + Proximity. It's that easy.

[Hermod]

Most cities of any size supported a pair of downtown departments stores. One was usually the premier store (Macy's, Marshall Field's, Wanamaker's, Hudson's, Hecht's, Thalhimer's) and one was the number two store (e.g. Crowley's). How many cities in the US still have a flagship store in the downtown area? Sear's and Penney's no longer build stand-alone stores in the burbs. The current model for retail is for two department stores plus Sear's and Penney's to provide a four store anchor to a regional mall. Norfolk did build a regional mall downtown in the last fifteen years (MacArthur Center). The last time I was there (2008) it was still doing reasonably well, but they have used highways and other structures to isolate the downtown from the lower proletariat.

[dtowncitylover]

Originally Posted by Hermod

Sear's

Haha! It's just "Sears", that was his last name.

Other secondary: Gimbels, Carson, Pirie, Scott, Horne's, and Donaldson's

[jflick3535]

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

If a business succeeds based strictly on massive subsidies, how does that draw other businesses to locate in the same area? Sure, let's just put a giant Crate and Barrel in downtown Detroit and *hope* that they draw other businesses, which most Detroiters still can't afford to patronize. That'll work.

We've seen this time and time again in Detroit. Development Through Inspiration DOES NOT WORK.

excellent point!!

That is why the Book Cadillac is doomed to fail(already has according to some people) and why all those loft projects went under--You can't throw taxpayer money at a market, create a huge supply and hope that demand follows--it's the other way around--Demand first then supply

[ghettopalmetto]

Originally Posted by jflick3535

excellent point!!

That is why the Book Cadillac is doomed to fail(already has according to some people) and why all those loft projects went under--You can't throw taxpayer money at a market, create a huge supply and hope that demand follows--it's the other way around--Demand first then supply

There is a distinct difference between subsidizing capital costs, such as renovation of a historic building and returning it to the tax rolls using historic preservation credits, and subsidizing operating losses of a property. To my knowledge, none of the lofts or the Book-Cadillac are having their operations subsidized by any government entity.

[stasu1213]

[quote=davewindsor;116970]Nonsense. What's the draw for a retailer? I think all the above is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if a third of residents don't have a car, there's only 50,000 workers in downtown or unemployment is at 15%. I think you could even get a Macy's to work in downtown.

I don't understand why the outrageous prices of shops in Somerset mall works in Troy, but it does. I don't understand how downtown casinos get so much traffic, but they do. Yes, I agree there's a lot of areas that would suck in downtown for large scale retail like a Macy's.like the former Hudson's site because Woodward doesn't have the kind of foot traffic or nearby downtown workers it once had or workers even wanting to walk there, but you don't need to market to them. Attaching a Macy's and/or a shopping centre next to a casino like the 160 shop Forum Shopping centre attached to Caesar's Palace in Vegas might work. Vegas in the middle of a freakin' desert. If it works in Vegas, why can't it work here?

Have a look at some of these gaming tables at Greektown casino and watch how much money people are blowing at these tables. Where's the money coming from? Probably not from the residents of downtown. Yet, Greektown casino was packed last time I went and I had to park on the seventh floor of their new garage and there was a lineup getting in. It would just be a matter of making it convenient to walk from the casino to Macy's like a pedestrian bridge. I think both anchors would increase each other's foot traffic and it would be a win-win for both. After winning or blowing $1,000, the might want to buy something at Macy's for their loved ones.

I think the idea of retail next to a casino is poorly marketed by the landlords and that's why very little has happened. I don't know why they didn't incorporate a shopping centre with large anchors like Macy's into their new hotel addition. The problem with downtown is people normally remain inside certain pockets in downtown and won't venture outside to explore the rest of downtown. So, I think large scale retail could work in downtown if it was attached to a casino.[/quoteDetroit neighborhoods had in the past catered to Detroiters. Each neighborhood had a commercial district that included a supermarket, a major retail store, smailler retail stores, restaurants schools and churches. Downtown was soley developed for business, shopping, and entertainment purpose. I agree with you when you had said that CBD has to cater to it's residence who lives in the area. Detroit, in the past 20 plus years, had tried to cater to out of towners visiting for a week or so than it's residence themselves. During the superbowl; many visitors were saying that we didnt have a place to shop downtown for clothing. There wasn't even a camera shop that had opened during that weekend to answer the demand for films or new cameras period. Detroit offers fabricated entertainment. You set up shop just for the event then tear down the shop once the event is over. Visitors who stays a few days more in the city often experience a rude awakening. Nothing to do downtown for the thrills had dissapeared.

[stasu1213]

Originally Posted by stasu1213

I am sorry that you have a hard time understanding

As long as we have politicians and so-called leaders in Michigan especially Detroit sabatoging the cities chances of getting some type of mass transit, it be 50 years before this city get anything

[jflick3535]

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

There is a distinct difference between subsidizing capital costs, such as renovation of a historic building and returning it to the tax rolls using historic preservation credits, and subsidizing operating losses of a property. To my knowledge, none of the lofts or the Book-Cadillac are having their operations subsidized by any government entity.

So when the Book Cadillac defaults on their government subsidized non-recourse loan--as a taxpayer you have no problem with the government supporting a failed entity?

all that money down the drain just so an investor can walk in and buy it for pennies on the dollar?\

All in the name of "putting the property back on the tax rolls" again?

or in the name of some hipster doofus being happy about preserving nice plaster work?

[ghettopalmetto]

Originally Posted by jflick3535

So when the Book Cadillac defaults on their government subsidized non-recourse loan--as a taxpayer you have no problem with the government supporting a failed entity?

What has failed? The doors of the Book Cadillac are open, are they not?

all that money down the drain just so an investor can walk in and buy it for pennies on the dollar?\

All in the name of "putting the property back on the tax rolls" again?

or in the name of some hipster doofus being happy about preserving nice plaster work?

With such reasoned confidence abounding, it's a miracle Detroit gets any damned thing done at all.

[jflick3535]

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

What has failed? The doors of the Book Cadillac are open, are they not?



With such reasoned confidence abounding, it's a miracle Detroit gets any damned thing done at all.

Lets call it a hypothetical question with a distinct possibility of it becoming a reality very soon--okay?


and as far as "reasoned confidence abounding" goes--you still have not answered my question

[ghettopalmetto]

Originally Posted by jflick3535

Lets call it a hypothetical question with a distinct possibility of it becoming a reality very soon--okay?

Are you the accountant for the Book Cadillac property? Or do you have some other source that none of us know about?

and as far as "reasoned confidence abounding" goes--you still have not answered my question

What question are you asking--what happens if the Book Cadillac were to close its doors?

I'm no finance whiz, but from what I understand, the financing for that project was incredibly complicated, with funding derived from about 20 sources. Perhaps you can be more specific in your question.

[jflick3535]

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Are you the accountant for the Book Cadillac property? Or do you have some other source that none of us know about?



What question are you asking--what happens if the Book Cadillac were to close its doors?

I'm no finance whiz, but from what I understand, the financing for that project was incredibly complicated, with funding derived from about 20 sources. Perhaps you can be more specific in your question.

The majority of the funding for the project was from taxpayers funds so no matter how many "sources" the money comes from it originates from john q public's wallet.

So once again(third time around for those keeping track at home)--are you all right with a project like the Book Cadillac (in which the majority of funding comes from taxpayer sources) defaulting due to there being no market or demand for the business?

In your mind is it worth it to support a business that has no hope of succeeding with tax payer dollars just to get it back on the tax rolls or as I posed earlier just so some hipster doofus can be happy they preserved good plaster work?

[Bearinabox]

Originally Posted by jflick3535

or as I posed earlier just so some hipster doofus can be happy they preserved good plaster work?

You sound like a doofus when you post things like this. Here is the "preservation of good plasterwork" in the Book-Cadillac:


I don't think you're entirely clear on what constitutes a hipster, either, but that's a lesson for another day.

[mikeg19]

Originally Posted by jflick3535

The majority of the funding for the project was from taxpayers funds so no matter how many "sources" the money comes from it originates from john q public's wallet.

So once again(third time around for those keeping track at home)--are you all right with a project like the Book Cadillac (in which the majority of funding comes from taxpayer sources) defaulting due to there being no market or demand for the business?

I was under the impression though that all of the condos if not the vast majority were sold before the building was open? Obviously that means nothing if the hotel is empty every night but I kind of doubt they would put that much time, money, and effort into a building and not think about the future. Things are tough right now but I don't think the Book Cadillac will be closing its doors at all.

[esp1986]

Originally Posted by mikeg19

I was under the impression though that all of the condos if not the vast majority were sold before the building was open? Obviously that means nothing if the hotel is empty every night but I kind of doubt they would put that much time, money, and effort into a building and not think about the future. Things are tough right now but I don't think the Book Cadillac will be closing its doors at all.

The condos were sold... however, those were only tentative agreements. When the housing market collapsed along with the credit market, it made it difficult for the people who agreed to buy them to arrange financing. When the building opened, only six condos were officially sold. As of the first anniversary of the building back in October, John Ferchill was quoted as saying "about 15-20 of the units remain" (out of 67). Since then, a few more have sold. Also, at the time of the first anniversary, Mr. Ferchill also said that the building's versatility was keeping it open, i.e. weddings, meetings, conventions...

The bottom line, is that the building is paying it's bills... it is not doing great, but there's not a lot that is right now... but the building is paying the bills and keeping it's metaphorical head above water, and with the big increase in traffic to the auto show this year, and the seemingly recovering (slowly) economy, there should be no reason to believe that the building will close. It is not like Ferchill has a huge, unmanageable loan outstanding on the building... because of the fact that it was primarily publicly financed, there is little long term cost, so the cost of keeping it open is limited predominatly to the cost of day to day operations.

[stasu1213]

Originally Posted by esp1986

The condos were sold... however, those were only tentative agreements. When the housing market collapsed along with the credit market, it made it difficult for the people who agreed to buy them to arrange financing. When the building opened, only six condos were officially sold. As of the first anniversary of the building back in October, John Ferchill was quoted as saying "about 15-20 of the units remain" (out of 67). Since then, a few more have sold. Also, at the time of the first anniversary, Mr. Ferchill also said that the building's versatility was keeping it open, i.e. weddings, meetings, conventions...

The bottom line, is that the building is paying it's bills... it is not doing great, but there's not a lot that is right now... but the building is paying the bills and keeping it's metaphorical head above water, and with the big increase in traffic to the auto show this year, and the seemingly recovering (slowly) economy, there should be no reason to believe that the building will close. It is not like Ferchill has a huge, unmanageable loan outstanding on the building... because of the fact that it was primarily publicly financed, there is little long term cost, so the cost of keeping it open is limited predominatly to the cost of day to day operations.

Why hadn't the City Council saw through Ferchills BS and allow tax money to help with the renovation of the building. Who does Ferchill has in his back pocket?

[happyhour1973]

Where does one begin??? Detroit is caught in a downward spiral that will take a serious miracle to pull out of. I have worked downtown for ten years and although there have been some dramatic and very positive changes over the years that I have enjoyed observing, besides a few new hotels, casinos, the Riverwalk, and the rather continuous opening, closing, opening and closing of restauraunts and bars, there really hasn't been close to the development I thought the city was on tracked for beginning several years ago.

Maybe a Macy's (or other big box) could be attached or close to a casino. But business would only be "noticeable" on the weekends and no major retailer will open just for questionable weekend business. This place is a ghost town come 5pm during the week and for the most part people just want to get out of the city. It's sad, really. I used to love hanging out down here after work and still do for Tiger/Red Wing games or festivals now and then. However, there just aren't enough draws for most suburbanites (save for the aforementioned) and those draws won't appear until enough people actually want to live downtown. And yet that won't occur until the city has competent government, good schools, quality city services, etc.

I am not trying to be negative. I just feel like I have experienced and spent enough time down here to have an opinion about the city. I love Detroit. It has pockets of undeniable uniqueness and definitely want to see it survive. Unfortunately, it is in the midst of a perfect storm right now.

[mikeg19]

Originally Posted by esp1986

The condos were sold... however, those were only tentative agreements. When the housing market collapsed along with the credit market, it made it difficult for the people who agreed to buy them to arrange financing. When the building opened, only six condos were officially sold. As of the first anniversary of the building back in October, John Ferchill was quoted as saying "about 15-20 of the units remain" (out of 67). Since then, a few more have sold. Also, at the time of the first anniversary, Mr. Ferchill also said that the building's versatility was keeping it open, i.e. weddings, meetings, conventions...

The bottom line, is that the building is paying it's bills... it is not doing great, but there's not a lot that is right now... but the building is paying the bills and keeping it's metaphorical head above water, and with the big increase in traffic to the auto show this year, and the seemingly recovering (slowly) economy, there should be no reason to believe that the building will close. It is not like Ferchill has a huge, unmanageable loan outstanding on the building... because of the fact that it was primarily publicly financed, there is little long term cost, so the cost of keeping it open is limited predominatly to the cost of day to day operations.

That's exactly what I thought. So I'm not understanding why so many people on here are spelling doom for the BC. As long as they are weathering the storm until the economic slump is over, why worry? I think that this is actually good news for the BC in that it is versatile and can keep its head above water in a crap economy, that should mean it can really take off when the economy is actually rolling again.

[detmsp]

Originally Posted by mikeg19

That's exactly what I thought. So I'm not understanding why so many people on here are spelling doom for the BC. As long as they are weathering the storm until the economic slump is over, why worry? I think that this is actually good news for the BC in that it is versatile and can keep its head above water in a crap economy, that should mean it can really take off when the economy is actually rolling again.

Well you are assuming that they are weathering the storm. Someone posted in another thread that the BC was not making any payments on loans and very close to default. Is that true? I have no idea, but it's certainly possible.

[esp1986]

Originally Posted by mikeg19

That's exactly what I thought. So I'm not understanding why so many people on here are spelling doom for the BC. As long as they are weathering the storm until the economic slump is over, why worry? I think that this is actually good news for the BC in that it is versatile and can keep its head above water in a crap economy, that should mean it can really take off when the economy is actually rolling again.

The Book Cadillac has really established itself, in a short time, as a premier event center. Just because of it's legacy, it has returned as a prime destination for weddings and corporate meetings alike. It doesn't have to rely entirely on booking the rooms, it also makes a lot of money from weddings. I am with you in this respect... just months after John Ferchill said they are staying afloat, just as the economy is showing signs of life, people start saying it is failing...

[EastSider]

Originally Posted by Hermod

Sear's and Penney's no longer build stand-alone stores in the burbs.

What about the Roseville Penney's, on Gratiot? That's the model for the store's future growth, or was when the company opened it a few years ago.

[jflick3535]

Originally Posted by esp1986

The Book Cadillac has really established itself, in a short time, as a premier event center. Just because of it's legacy, it has returned as a prime destination for weddings and corporate meetings alike. It doesn't have to rely entirely on booking the rooms, it also makes a lot of money from weddings. I am with you in this respect... just months after John Ferchill said they are staying afloat, just as the economy is showing signs of life, people start saying it is failing...

Is that the same John Ferchill that said almost all of the condos were sold--when a majority were not sold(before the economic crisis) the same john Ferchill that said the million dollar condo was sold when in fact it wasn't (before the economic crisis)

now you choose to believe him?

When are people around here going to learn that real estate developers are full of crap?

The hotel industry in Metro Detroit is in a tail spin right now-- properties are losing flags left and right due to the lack of funds for pip programs
Then you add a shitload of hotel rooms to a market which was already depressed and a majority of those hotel rooms are casinos who don't give a rats ass about their ADR.

Sorry ya can't stay afloat with just meetings and weddings especially if your occupancy rate is below 30%

[esp1986]

Originally Posted by jflick3535

Is that the same John Ferchill that said almost all of the condos were sold--when a majority were not sold(before the economic crisis) the same john Ferchill that said the million dollar condo was sold when in fact it wasn't (before the economic crisis)

now you choose to believe him?

When are people around here going to learn that real estate developers are full of crap?

The hotel industry in Metro Detroit is in a tail spin right now-- properties are losing flags left and right due to the lack of funds for pip programs
Then you add a shitload of hotel rooms to a market which was already depressed and a majority of those hotel rooms are casinos who don't give a rats ass about their ADR.

Sorry ya can't stay afloat with just meetings and weddings especially if your occupancy rate is below 30%

Clearly, you have no idea how much these places make off of events... and you clearly don't understand how the sale of these things worked... when they "sold them," they had signed contracts with nonrefundable down payments... but since these projects take time, they don't pay the whole cost until they are finished... so when it came time for the buyers to pay, they couldn't obtain financing... get your facts straight... technically, they had binding contracts to sell these units, so they qualified as sold, and it isn't Ferchill's fault that they couldn't get financing.

[Hermod]

Originally Posted by esp1986

Clearly, you have no idea how much these places make off of events... and you clearly don't understand how the sale of these things worked... when they "sold them," they had signed contracts with nonrefundable down payments... but since these projects take time, they don't pay the whole cost until they are finished... so when it came time for the buyers to pay, they couldn't obtain financing... get your facts straight... technically, they had binding contracts to sell these units, so they qualified as sold, and it isn't Ferchill's fault that they couldn't get financing.

Big difference between being "under contract" and being "closed". I would not considered it to be a final sale until closing. Prior to that, all the seller has is a deposit (which a buyer can often sue to get back).

[ghettopalmetto]

Originally Posted by jflick3535

Is that the same John Ferchill that said almost all of the condos were sold--when a majority were not sold(before the economic crisis) the same john Ferchill that said the million dollar condo was sold when in fact it wasn't (before the economic crisis)

now you choose to believe him?

When are people around here going to learn that real estate developers are full of crap?

The hotel industry in Metro Detroit is in a tail spin right now-- properties are losing flags left and right due to the lack of funds for pip programs
Then you add a shitload of hotel rooms to a market which was already depressed and a majority of those hotel rooms are casinos who don't give a rats ass about their ADR.

Sorry ya can't stay afloat with just meetings and weddings especially if your occupancy rate is below 30%

Are you implying that you know more about the finances of the Book Cadillac than John Ferchill does?

And you know that its occupancy rate is below 30%?

And you know that it's not staying afloat with "just meetings and weddings"?

Please provide supporting evidence.

[stasu1213]

I dont think that Detroit will get anything until the Mayor finish downsizing this city. He had been boisting about that since he had gotten into office. We probably would get lightrail after that feat is completed.

[DetroitPlanner]

Originally Posted by Hermod

Most cities of any size supported a pair of downtown departments stores. One was usually the premier store (Macy's, Marshall Field's, Wanamaker's, Hudson's, Hecht's, Thalhimer's) and one was the number two store (e.g. Crowley's). How many cities in the US still have a flagship store in the downtown area? Sear's and Penney's no longer build stand-alone stores in the burbs. The current model for retail is for two department stores plus Sear's and Penney's to provide a four store anchor to a regional mall. Norfolk did build a regional mall downtown in the last fifteen years (MacArthur Center). The last time I was there (2008) it was still doing reasonably well, but they have used highways and other structures to isolate the downtown from the lower proletariat.

You're making pretty good points here, however there has been a shift over the last five years or so to build stand alone stores instead of stores in regional malls. These stores may share parking lots with pseudo strip malls known as Lifestyle Centers. This is a reaction to seeing much of their market share shifting to this preferred style of shopping. Personally I think of lifestyle centers as just stripmalls putting purfume on the pig, but a lot of folks think they are the cat's pajamas.

[stasu1213]

Originally Posted by EastSider

What about the Roseville Penney's, on Gratiot? That's the model for the store's future growth, or was when the company opened it a few years ago.

I think that the day of the stand alone department store has passed.

[stasu1213]

Their had also been developers like Northern Group from New York who bought a couple of buildings downtown and a couple of apartment complexes, laid off the eimployees with the promise of bringing business into downtown, then pull out after a couple of years of ownership. That helps with the declining of the BC

[DetroitPlanner]

Originally Posted by stasu1213

I think that the day of the stand alone department store has passed.

Since the opening of the Gratiot store in Roseville Penny's has built new free standing stores in White Lake, at I-94 and 23 Mile, Greek Oak, and proposed one for the Fairgrounds. If the free standing store does not work as a concept why would not Penny's just reopen their store at Northland as opposed to building something new close-by?

[stasu1213]

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Since the opening of the Gratiot store in Roseville Penny's has built new free standing stores in White Lake, at I-94 and 23 Mile, Greek Oak, and proposed one for the Fairgrounds. If the free standing store does not work as a concept why would not Penny's just reopen their store at Northland as opposed to building something new close-by?

IIsn't the JCPenney in Roseville connected to another building? Is it two stores under one roof or does the other store sits in it's own building. I will stand corrected. Northland is a sinking ship. I don't see any major retail store opening in that shopping center. Sears did open a store in Eastland. So did Burlington. One thing about the JCPenney store is it is functional for any entity to move in if JCPenny decides to move out. The days of the art deco stand alone department stores are a thing of the past. In my opinion once the culture of people change in Downtown Detroit and along E Jefferson, going north on Grand River, Gratioit and Woodward, you will see the type of stores change. No more wigs and braided hair shops. No more low rated beauty shop and barber shops. You will have more boutiques and shops that would cater to the general community in the area and not just one segment of the population. JCPennys and Target would set up shop in the strip malls within the inner city and downtown

[EastSider]

Originally Posted by stasu1213

IIsn't the JCPenney in Roseville connected to another building? Is it two stores under one roof or does the other store sits in it's own building. I will stand corrected....The days of the art deco stand alone department stores are a thing of the past.

The Roseville Penney's is it's own building. There is a cooking school around the back, and the corner has room for a small 'convenience' style retail, but it's not in a strip mall, lifestyle center or other retail collection by any stretch of the imagination.

And nice way to recast your argument and suddenly specify "art deco" stores are a thing of the past.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by detmsp

Well you are assuming that they are weathering the storm. Someone posted in another thread that the BC was not making any payments on loans and very close to default. Is that true? I have no idea, but it's certainly possible.

Even if it did default and go bankrupt, I highly doubt the complex would be closed down and boarded up. In the event of bankruptcy, another hotel operator would probably come in and purchase the property at a discount.

Now, that might not spell so well for rehabs of other buildings in Detroit in the near future, but it is EXTREMELY unlikely that the B-C will revert back to being an abandoned structure anytime soon.

[esp1986]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Even if it did default and go bankrupt, I highly doubt the complex would be closed down and boarded up. In the event of bankruptcy, another hotel operator would probably come in and purchase the property at a discount.

Now, that might not spell so well for rehabs of other buildings in Detroit in the near future, but it is EXTREMELY unlikely that the B-C will revert back to being an abandoned structure anytime soon.

Someone needs to define what they mean when they say the "Book-Cadillac" is nearing default... is it Ferchill on the building (which I doubt), or the Westin Hotel (which would be a little more believable)??

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by esp1986

Someone needs to define what they mean when they say the "Book-Cadillac" is nearing default... is it Ferchill on the building (which I doubt), or the Westin Hotel (which would be a little more believable)??

I believe that the Ferchill Group owns the entire building, so if it defaults then it would affect the entire property. Starwood (Westin) is only the operator of the property (Similar to how GM owns the Ren Cen complex while Marriott operates the hotel). If the property goes into default, it is likely that it could be bought for a very steep discount on what Ferchill put into renovating the property. That alone makes it very unlikely that this building would be shuttered again any time soon.

(ETA: The case of a default might not spell doom for this particular property, but it would very much affect how investors gauge the viability of other renovation projects in Detroit. So if indeed this project does default, it will very likely kill off other potential rehab projects...)

[stasu1213]

Originally Posted by EastSider

The Roseville Penney's is it's own building. There is a cooking school around the back, and the corner has room for a small 'convenience' style retail, but it's not in a strip mall, lifestyle center or other retail collection by any stretch of the imagination.

And nice way to recast your argument and suddenly specify "art deco" stores are a thing of the past.

I had also said that I will stand corrected if JCPenneys did stand alone.