Remnants of a streetcar system

[bc_n_dtown]

Those were correct who stated that the Harper streetcar, which stopped running in 1947, only went as far east along Harper as Van Dyke, where it turned north to 8 Mile Rd. The only other streetcar to operate along Harper was the Clairmount line, which turned off Harper at Montclair [[one block east of French Rd), then via Shoemaker and St. Jean to Jefferson.

As a matter of fact, the only mode of public transit to use Harper east of Montclair to the city limits, since 1925, were buses. In addition, the Harper/Morang area didn't even become a part of Detroit until 1925, by which time most of the city's streetcar grid had already been built. To provide service to this newly annexed area the DSR started a Harper bus line, a short feeder route to connect with the Clairmount line at Montclair. Very little new trackage was built by the DSR after 1925, especially on the far east-side.

Consequently, the Harper/Morang "comfort station" in question had to be used only by buses. Depending on what year we're referring to, the bus routes that traveled within that intersection during the 1950s were the Cadillac-Harper, Seven Mile East, Harper-Nine Mile and the Cadieux [[which was replaced by extending the McNichols East line in 1959).

[blackmath]

This isn't about streetcars, but here's an old instructional film made in 1937 or 38 a friend of mine uploaded onto youtube a while back. It was meant as a training "video" of sorts for new Detroit bus drivers. The narration is amazingly dated and hilarious. There's 6 parts to it, just check the sidebar Great shots of the city in there as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzvSgCm5WOM - part 1 of 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaSLR...eature=related - 2 0f 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77bfR...eature=related - 3 of 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdKuA...eature=related - 4 0f 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQyHJ...eature=related - 5 of 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd_RT...eature=related - 6 of 6

[blackmath]

Here's another film he uploaded called "Getting About" made in 1935. Great streetcar scenes in this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYTH3...eature=related

Just check the sidebar for the following parts.

btw - a much more serious tone to this one. Its pretty informative.

[Hermod]

In the forties and fifties, the larger buses for Detroit were made by Mack and Twin Coach. The smaller buses were made by Ford. At the time, there was no intermediate [[jr high) school in the far NE and 7th and 8th graders from the Wayne, Clark, and Arthur Elementary School districts were bussed down to Jackson Intermediate using DSR charter buses. My bus stop was at Nottingham and Berkshire and usually we got a Mack or a Twin Coach and there were seats for most, but not all, kids [[students in grade 7B were required to stand while their "betters" got the seats.. Some days when there was a glitch in the system with a bus unavailable, we would get a Ford and the aisle was just jam packed with standees.

[douglasm]

Wingnatic......
.....you could see the same tracks north of 9 Mile, where Camborne and Woodland crossed Woodward.

It's common knoledge that the Woodward streetcar line turned around at the Fairgrounds. Do they still do that with the busses and is the DSR Lunch still there?

[Augustiner]

Wingnatic......
.....you could see the same tracks north of 9 Mile, where Camborne and Woodland crossed Woodward.

It's common knoledge that the Woodward streetcar line turned around at the Fairgrounds. Do they still do that with the busses and is the DSR Lunch still there?

The Woodward buses still turn around in a loop off Woodward surrounded by the Fairgrounds property, along with a few other routes. I catch buses there all the time and I've never heard of the "DSR Lunch," so I'm gonna assume it's not there anymore.

[douglasm]

DSR Lunch was a very greasy spoon, so you're probably not missing much [[except indegestion). It was on the outbound side of the loop at Woodward, backed up against the parking lot fence........

[bc_n_dtown]

DSR Lunch was a very greasy spoon, so you're probably not missing much [[except indegestion). It was on the outbound side of the loop at Woodward, backed up against the parking lot fence........

douglasm, I take it the building to the left in this photo is the place you're referring to. So was "DSR Lunch" the actual name of that establishment?

Attachment 8070

BTW--The Fairgrounds Loop looks nothing like this today. It's been remodeled at least twice since this photo was taken. The most recent being in 2007.
[[Joe Testagrose collection photo)

[mikefmich]

bcn-downtown

Well that crashes a 50+ yr memory I guess.

Help me out, your knowledge of the streetcar lines seem pretty good. Had I gotten on a bus at the Harper-Morang comfort station in either '55 or '56, where could I have gone on that bus to connect with the closest streetcar heading downtown?

[Hermod]

bcn-downtown

Well that crashes a 50+ yr memory I guess.

Help me out, your knowledge of the streetcar lines seem pretty good. Had I gotten on a bus at the Harper-Morang comfort station in either '55 or '56, where could I have gone on that bus to connect with the closest streetcar heading downtown?

Gratiot and Harper for the Gratiot line.

[bc_n_dtown]

bcn-downtown

Well that crashes a 50+ yr memory I guess.

Help me out, your knowledge of the streetcar lines seem pretty good. Had I gotten on a bus at the Harper-Morang comfort station in either '55 or '56, where could I have gone on that bus to connect with the closest streetcar heading downtown?

mikefmich,
Hermod was correct, the shortest route would have been taking the Cadillac-Harper bus, which would have dropped you off at the Harper/Cadillac/Gratiot intersection to hop on the Gratiot car into downtown.

I do remember reading in one of your previous posts where your mom took you to ride the streetcar during its last week, in which case that would have been on the Woodward line [[April 1956). There were two options; one would have been the Seven Mile East bus, via Morang and E. Seven Mile to Woodward, then hopping on the Woodward car heading downtown. The second would have been taking the Cadillac-Harper all the way downtown to Woodward, and then hopping onboard the Woodward car out-of-town.

Also, it looks like the Ford Expressway coming through that intersection around 1958 changed the entire landscape. Maybe one of those old aerial photos from pre-1956 might help here.

[Hermod]

mikefmich,
Hermod was correct, the shortest route would have been taking the Cadillac-Harper bus, which would have dropped you off at the Harper/Cadillac/Gratiot intersection to hop on the Gratiot car into downtown.

I do remember reading in one of your previous posts where your mom took you to ride the streetcar during its last week, in which case that would have been on the Woodward line [[April 1956). There were two options; one would have been the Seven Mile East bus, via Morang and E. Seven Mile to Woodward, then hopping on the Woodward car heading downtown. The second would have been taking the Cadillac-Harper all the way downtown to Woodward, and then hopping onboard the Woodward car out-of-town.

Last run on Gratiot was March 25, 1956.
Last run on Woodward was April 8, 1956

I guess she might have chosen either for the "last ride".

Last run on Michigan Ave was September 7, 1955.

[Mikeg]

Also, it looks like the Ford Expressway coming through that intersection around 1958 changed the entire landscape. Maybe one of those old aerial photos from pre-1956 might help here.

Here's an aerial of the Harper-Morang intersection that was taken on April 13, 1956 [source]:

Attachment 8085

Compare to a recent aerial:

Attachment 8086

[LeannaM]

It's pretty neat to find old signs of street cars and transit.

In St. Louis a few years ago a construction crane tore up part of the road. Underneath the pavement were bricks and street car tracks.

There's somewhere in St. Louis that still has street car signs as well. There's a few pictures of it here: http://urbanstl.com/forum-bridge/ind...rb_v=viewtopic

[bc_n_dtown]

Thanks Mikeg for posting the aerial shots. I see it now, the triangular block where the comfort station in question resided was completely eliminated by the f-way. It looks like when the expwy went through there Morang was moved slightly to the SW, no longer connecting with Neff St. as it had originally. The original fork-in-the-road connecting Harper and Chester was moved one block northeastward, from originally starting at Woodhall St. to now starting at Neff. As a result, the triangular block was no longer formed by Harper, Morang and Chester, but now Harper, Hereford and Chester.

mikefmich or Al Publican,
I'm interested in learning more about this comfort station. Was it a small building, an over-sized bus shelter, or what? Was it located on Harper or on Morang? I do remember reading about a small Spanish style comfort station [[or waiting station) that was located on the west-side on McNichols and Livernois, by U of D. The old 14th Street streetcar use to turn-around at that station. It was a rather small-size building that hung around for some years after the streetcar line was discontinued. I'm wondering if the two were similar in any way?

[bc_n_dtown]

It's pretty neat to find old signs of street cars and transit.

In St. Louis a few years ago a construction crane tore up part of the road. Underneath the pavement were bricks and street car tracks.

Yeah, those old remnants of the streetcar era do raise their heads from time to time. A few weeks ago I was showing a friend who was staying in the Fenkell-Birwood area how the "wye-turn" rails along Birwood were starting to come through the pavement. That intersection use to be the end of the line for the Trumbull streetcar.

[cramerro]

I have been waiting for this thread to pop up for over a year! I work in Royal Oak, accessing my office via Washington Ave to Woodward/696. Last summer they did a mill and resurface on Washington from Woodward up to Lincoln... as I drove home one day I was in the queue to cross Woodward and snapped these picks of the rails in the street that they've obviously been paving over since they were decommissioned. Thought you might all enjoy. Pics are looking to the southeast while heading south on Washington, right in front of what is now the new Lifetime Fitness.

[Detroitnerd]

Here's a neat time-lapse video of rail replacement in San Francisco. Just kind of cool to watch ...

http://vimeo.com/15780202

[bc_n_dtown]

Yeah cramerro, all those miles of streetcar tracks buried all over Detroit do get to see the light of day every now and then. That same trackage at one time belonged to the former Flint interurban line that first began operating during the late 1890s. They haven't been used since 1947.

According to the book, Detroit's Street Railways Vol I, when the interurban service to Flint was discontinued in April 1931, the City of Royal Oak purchased the track and overhead north of Eight Mile along Woodward, Washington, 4th, and Main to Catalpa in Royal Oak for $12,200. The city then entered into an agreement with the Detroit DSR to lease the tracks and streetcar service began in May of 1931. The service was discontinued on May 3, 1947, and replaced by the DSR's short-lived Royal Oak Shuttle bus route.

[Rocko]

DDOT coaches still turn in classic DSR streetcar turning loops at Brennan Street, the Wayburn Loop, the Pierson Loop, among others. I love finding traces of the old streetcar lines. The curved tracks are still very visible at Vernor W. and Junction, and along Michigan Avenue near old Tiger Stadium...there are other sites, too.

[Wingnatic]

I haven't heard '' DSR '' in years lol Nice photo's btw , its a pretty cool reminder when once in awhile some of these tracks are uncovered . I was poking around on the net looking for the old Martin Bus lines , I believe their old terminal is now the R.O. Fish Market now and came across this website that may interest some .

http://www.detroittransithistory.info/index.html

[mikefmich]

mikefmich,
Hermod was correct, the shortest route would have been taking the Cadillac-Harper bus, which would have dropped you off at the Harper/Cadillac/Gratiot intersection to hop on the Gratiot car into downtown.

I do remember reading in one of your previous posts where your mom took you to ride the streetcar during its last week, in which case that would have been on the Woodward line [[April 1956). There were two options; one would have been the Seven Mile East bus, via Morang and E. Seven Mile to Woodward, then hopping on the Woodward car heading downtown. The second would have been taking the Cadillac-Harper all the way downtown to Woodward, and then hopping onboard the Woodward car out-of-town.

Also, it looks like the Ford Expressway coming through that intersection around 1958 changed the entire landscape. Maybe one of those old aerial photos from pre-1956 might help here.

Right...and before this thread I would've sworn it was the last week or very close to it. I do have clear memory of boarding a streetcar...obviously where exactly that was versus where I thought it was is different. I can't imagine ma going all the way to Woodward to get downtown. Perhaps it was a year earlier, because she knew the streetcars were going to be extinct in the near future.

Partly why I remember is it was the only time I was on a streetcar in my memory. Usually we took the Warren bus downtown from Warren & Canyon.

[mikefmich]

Yeah, those old remnants of the streetcar era do raise their heads from time to time. A few weeks ago I was showing a friend who was staying in the Fenkell-Birwood area how the "wye-turn" rails along Birwood were starting to come through the pavement. That intersection use to be the end of the line for the Trumbull streetcar.

Well I can at least comment correctly on this.

Used to work for MichCon street dept. in the 70's. The main that ran down Harper Ave. near Vandyke was right underneath or just alongside the old tracks and the foundation they sat on.

Concrete was deep, and the hardness of the track cement footings was legendary among MichCon street guys. Rather than the usual depth of the streets, we had to "dig" with a jackhammer 3' down.

Anytime we pulled a work order in the morning for a main leak at Harper and Vandyke just left us with a sick feeling of what was to come.

[Sandhouse]

It could have been worse, Mikef. You could have worked in a city where there were cable cars. George Hilton's "The Cable Car in America" points out that cable-driven street railways required a conduit about 3 feet deep of concrete poured around cast-iron frames every 3 or 4 feet. Hilton speculates on what it must be like for contractors to bid on a utility job in such a city, unaware that this nightmare is just below the pavement surface.

Grand Rapids had an extensive cable-car network, including the world's longest single cable run, but it only lasted one winter, after the cable froze up. I keep waiting to hear of traces of it turning up, but I never have seen any. Hilton wonders why Detroit never had cable cars [[as did Chicago, Washington, and New York) even though our straight, radial streets would have been ideal for this system. I presume Detroit just couldn't raise the capital during the cable-car heyday of the 1880's.

[Detroitnerd]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that cable car technology was quickly supplanted by electric power. The only places where cables remained is service were extremely steep places, such as San Francisco.