Detroit Public Transportation: 2014 and beyond.

[professorscott]

Boy, that just makes me... I don't know what. Cry?

There's no part of that we couldn't build, if you like light rail. If you prefer commuter rail, which would be even easier to do [[and by a huge factor), check out Neil Greenberg's "Fresh Water Railway" web site, www.fwrail.org.

There is absolutely nothing holding us back except political will, a failure of leadership. A state which can spend hundreds of millions of dollars to unnecessarily widen expressways can choose to spend money providing decent transit.

Don't cry; fight.

[DetroitPlanner]

Interesting. http://www.modeldmedia.com/features/...ment12114.aspx

[Eber Brock Ward]

I realize that it's the equivalent of a "concept car", but Neil doesn't seem to consider Title VI implications in putting together his freshwater plan, unless he'd plan to privately fund it. Civil rights lawyers and the government would have a feeding frenzy on his city transit map, in particular.

I think it's nice in a technical sense, but pretty offensive from an equity and race sense, and I usually scoff at racialist approaches to policy. Such is the problem when you give planners or engineers, or other technical types, free reign.

But again, great thought exercise/inspirational item. If it gets even one person on board [[pun intended) with increased transit funding for the region, then good.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

In the last week, there have been reports of more problems for four major transit projects in this country:
1) NY's "East Side Side Access" project will come in a further $2B and 2+years later [[note, it was already billions over budget and years late).
2) Also in NY, the #7 trains 1-stop extension will not be operation for at least an additional six month. That single stop will have cost $2.4B [[if it has no further overruns) to go a single mile. And it was scheduled to be completed for the 2012 Olympics [[good thing London won the games!).
3) California's High Speed Rail has had 5 court rulings against it from different angles, but the most significant of them basically refuses to allow the state's High Speed Rail Authority to sell any bonds [[$9B approved by voters) until they can prove they will be able to raise the remainder of the money to build the system [[$59B for the truncated version of the system, assuming- hahahahaha- that it stays on budget). If the plan goes forward and is built, it will open, if it is on schedule, in the mid 2030s.
4) DC's Metro Silver Line [[first phase), already supposed to be operating, will need at least another 90 days of testing before service begins. Every month that it is not online means another $2-3M in losses, because the staff to run the trains is currently being paid, even if there are no trains [[and fare revenue).

THE US HAS NO HISTORY OF ON TIME, ON BUDGET LARGE TRANSIT PROJECTS. ALL PROJECTIONS ARE OPTIMISTIC. SOME PROJECTS DO MERIT SUPPORT, BUT DON'T FOOL YOURSELF OR ANYONE ELSE THAT YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MUCH IT WILL COST AND HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE TO BUILD. TO BE RESPONSIBLE, THE BUILDING AGENCY OR GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO IDENTIFY IN ADVANCE THE SOURCE OF THE MONEY TO FINISH THE JOB, WHEN IT INEVITABLY GOES OVER BUDGET.

[ghettopalmetto]

In the last week, there have been reports of more problems for four major transit projects in this country:
1) NY's "East Side Side Access" project will come in a further $2B and 2+years later [[note, it was already billions over budget and years late).
2) Also in NY, the #7 trains 1-stop extension will not be operation for at least an additional six month. That single stop will have cost $2.4B [[if it has no further overruns) to go a single mile. And it was scheduled to be completed for the 2012 Olympics [[good thing London won the games!).
3) California's High Speed Rail has had 5 court rulings against it from different angles, but the most significant of them basically refuses to allow the state's High Speed Rail Authority to sell any bonds [[$9B approved by voters) until they can prove they will be able to raise the remainder of the money to build the system [[$59B for the truncated version of the system, assuming- hahahahaha- that it stays on budget). If the plan goes forward and is built, it will open, if it is on schedule, in the mid 2030s.
4) DC's Metro Silver Line [[first phase), already supposed to be operating, will need at least another 90 days of testing before service begins. Every month that it is not online means another $2-3M in losses, because the staff to run the trains is currently being paid, even if there are no trains [[and fare revenue).

THE US HAS NO HISTORY OF ON TIME, ON BUDGET LARGE TRANSIT PROJECTS. ALL PROJECTIONS ARE OPTIMISTIC. SOME PROJECTS DO MERIT SUPPORT, BUT DON'T FOOL YOURSELF OR ANYONE ELSE THAT YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MUCH IT WILL COST AND HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE TO BUILD. TO BE RESPONSIBLE, THE BUILDING AGENCY OR GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO IDENTIFY IN ADVANCE THE SOURCE OF THE MONEY TO FINISH THE JOB, WHEN IT INEVITABLY GOES OVER BUDGET.

Of course, you conveniently ignore the dozens of transit projects that get completed on time, under budget, and with higher-than-projected ridership. You also ignore numerous highway projects that come in late and over budget, most notably, Boston's Central Artery/Tunnel project.

We get it. You're an idealogue.

[Eber Brock Ward]

Of course, you conveniently ignore the dozens of transit projects that get completed on time, under budget, and with higher-than-projected ridership. You also ignore numerous highway projects that come in late and over budget, most notably, Boston's Central Artery/Tunnel project.

We get it. You're an idealogue.

Nailed it. You win the hammer/nail neon for the day.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Of course, you conveniently ignore the dozens of transit projects that get completed on time, under budget, and with higher-than-projected ridership. You also ignore numerous highway projects that come in late and over budget, most notably, Boston's Central Artery/Tunnel project.

We get it. You're an idealogue.

I have never said that I am not an ideologue. But I am not anti-transit. I am for reasonable and responsible spending of our limited transit resources. Hugely expensive pie-in-the-sky plans with price tags in the billions would never be merited by the ridership they would have in Detroit. Of course, these discussions are academic because there is no real chance that we'll have have a massive transit system centered on a majestic and jewel-encrusted Michigan Central Station. If we want more people to have access to good public transportation, the best way to do that is to have a SE Michigan network of clean, modern, safe, on time buses, coordinated with limited rail [[M1 Rail, possibly Detroit-Ann Arbor rail, People Mover) and BRT service. Nice stations & bus shelters, well placed stops. That is achievable. And it would benefit a great many people.

But, I understand. Living in a pretend world can be fun. When I'm on my way home in my flying car, I'll be thinking about how I would rather be riding the solar-powered subway from Flint to Windsor.

P.S. I am not for wasteful spending on road projects either. There just aren't a lot of threads here demanding ridiculous road projects. And ghettopalmetto, please provide the list of big transit projects that are on time and under budget. I am truly not aware of them. If they are out there, let's hire the people that ran them! And the "bad news" examples I cited above did not need to be searched out. They were all in the news in the last week or so.

[Junjie]

I have never said that I am not an ideologue. But I am not anti-transit. I am for reasonable and responsible spending of our limited transit resources. Hugely expensive pie-in-the-sky plans with price tags in the billions would never be merited by the ridership they would have in Detroit. Of course, these discussions are academic because there is no real chance that we'll have have a massive transit system centered on a majestic and jewel-encrusted Michigan Central Station. If we want more people to have access to good public transportation, the best way to do that is to have a SE Michigan network of clean, modern, safe, on time buses, coordinated with limited rail [[M1 Rail, possibly Detroit-Ann Arbor rail, People Mover) and BRT service. Nice stations & bus shelters, well placed stops. That is achievable. And it would benefit a great many people.

But, I understand. Living in a pretend world can be fun. When I'm on my way home in my flying car, I'll be thinking about how I would rather be riding the solar-powered subway from Flint to Windsor.

Hey, this is Jackson Woods - the guy who made the fantasy map that was linked in this thread [[Detroit Metro). I just wanted to pipe up to say that the intent was never to say that Detroit either needs or can easily build world-class stations, subway lines, etc.

I actually think I mostly agree with your point. I intentionally didn't reference specific technologies like light rail or subway. Feel free to see it as an aspirational BRT map, or even just express buses. Station could mean a subway station. Or it could mean a curbside stop with a bench. Whatever you like. The point is the network and the quality of the system, which is intended to come through in the map's design.

I wanted to show people the possibilities that a high quality transit network offers the region. What they could get for their money if the money were spent in the right way. The I94/I75 widening projects are estimated at about $4 billion total, right? People threw around $0.5 billion in the news for the BRT plan covering Woodward, Gratiot, Michigan to Ann Arbor, and M59 which is probably around 60-70% of the mileage on my map. If those figures aren't too far off, then saying, for example "you could buy this network of BRT for half the cost of those highway widenings" might be a meaningful point to make in the argument for enhanced public transit in the area.

Insofar as I had aspirations beyond just making a fun map - and a lot of it was just because I really like transit maps - that'd be it.

[[And as a Kalamazoo native, apologies if I badly screwed up any local place names etc.)

[DetroitPlanner]

Of course, you conveniently ignore the dozens of transit projects that get completed on time, under budget, and with higher-than-projected ridership. You also ignore numerous highway projects that come in late and over budget, most notably, Boston's Central Artery/Tunnel project.

We get it. You're an idealogue.

You mean the people mover? You can cherry pick projects from both lists to make your point. It won't be vaild though.

[downtownguy]

^^Kind of reminds me of the scene in "Annie Hall" with Marshall McLuhan.

"You know nothing of my work!"

http://youtu.be/sXJ8tKRlW3E

[Junjie]

^^Kind of reminds me of the scene in "Annie Hall" with Marshall McLuhan.

"You know nothing of my work!"

http://youtu.be/sXJ8tKRlW3E

Haha, well, I don't want to be unfair to MikeyinBrooklyn. I understand how fantasy maps can come across - "hey, if you'd just spend that extra $30 billion you have on building the New York Subway in Detroit, you'd turn Detroit into New York!" - and I certainly can't expect anyone to read my mind.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Haha, well, I don't want to be unfair to MikeyinBrooklyn. I understand how fantasy maps can come across - "hey, if you'd just spend that extra $30 billion you have on building the New York Subway in Detroit, you'd turn Detroit into New York!" - and I certainly can't expect anyone to read my mind.

Thank you, Jackson. I understand your point. By the way, $30B doesn't go very far in NYC on a transit project! I can see how dream plans can be helpful, like touring luxury homes before renovating your house: you aren't going to build a mansion, but you want some inspiration. I just get tired of the people, who might otherwise be serious, that demand something waaaaaaaaaaay out of proportion with what would work in Detroit. We need to have a way to pay for what we want, and it can't rely on outside sources [[although such money is welcome if we get it). And it also needs to have a realistic chance of getting a good amount of riders when built, with a determined source of the subsidy revenue. The worst thing we could do is build a an elaborate system that doesn't get riders or that we can't afford to keep running [[including during a recession when governments are looking to cut).

[Junjie]

Thank you, Jackson. I understand your point. By the way, $30B doesn't go very far in NYC on a transit project! I can see how dream plans can be helpful, like touring luxury homes before renovating your house: you aren't going to build a mansion, but you want some inspiration. I just get tired of the people, who might otherwise be serious, that demand something waaaaaaaaaaay out of proportion with what would work in Detroit. We need to have a way to pay for what we want, and it can't rely on outside sources [[although such money is welcome if we get it). And it also needs to have a realistic chance of getting a good amount of riders when built, with a determined source of the subsidy revenue. The worst thing we could do is build a an elaborate system that doesn't get riders or that we can't afford to keep running [[including during a recession when governments are looking to cut).

Sure, glad I happened to be a lurker on this forum for years and got a chance to respond. I understand what you mean and agree with everything you said above. And yeah, ha, I missed a 0 or two on that New York figure.

[That Great Guy]

Tax shifting to shut down handicapped facilities or essential bus service for workers is illegal.

Please know this when voting on mass transit or transportation tax proposals

Please learn the facts to protect everyone's rights, put safety first, make the best use of limited tax dollars and improve mass transit.

[Eber Brock Ward]

Tax shifting to shut down handicapped facilities or essential bus service for workers is illegal.

Please know this when voting on mass transit or transportation tax proposals

Please learn the facts to protect everyone's rights, put safety first, make the best use of limited tax dollars and improve mass transit.

This isn't true. I've been involved in shifting service and eliminating some service in another jurisdiction. Among other things, you see public input and run it through a Title VI prism. While it's more difficult than just not running the busses on a particular route anymore, it's really a pretty easy process and not nearly as difficult [[or illegal) as you maintain.

[professorscott]

This isn't true. I've been involved in shifting service and eliminating some service in another jurisdiction. Among other things, you see public input and run it through a Title VI prism. While it's more difficult than just not running the busses on a particular route anymore, it's really a pretty easy process and not nearly as difficult [[or illegal) as you maintain.

It's not worth replying to him; he posts this nonsense repeatedly in the face of all logic and facts. I've already suggested to him, to prove his point, go to Rochester Hills or Livonia and catch a SMART bus.

There is no requirement anywhere in the United States that any community provide any public transit whatever. If a community chooses to provide public transit, then there are a lot of rules to follow, including rules about accessibility. But he believes what he believes, and apparently always will.

If the SMART millage fails in any county, SMART service in that county will end as soon as the already-collected money has been spent. Period, end of sentence. And the rest of the region will find it even harder to get around without a car than how ridiculously hard it already is.

[That Great Guy]

It's not worth replying to him; he posts this nonsense repeatedly in the face of all logic and facts. I've already suggested to him, to prove his point, go to Rochester Hills or Livonia and catch a SMART bus.

There is no requirement anywhere in the United States that any community provide any public transit whatever. If a community chooses to provide public transit, then there are a lot of rules to follow, including rules about accessibility. But he believes what he believes, and apparently always will.

If the SMART millage fails in any county, SMART service in that county will end as soon as the already-collected money has been spent. Period, end of sentence. And the rest of the region will find it even harder to get around without a car than how ridiculously hard it already is.

When the 7 Mile SMART bus route to Laurel Park Mall in Livonia was shut down, the people who used this for work were still taken there, but service was still reduced

We can thank the cuts from the Michigan Department of Transportation for this and there are reasons this happened. Have you ever heard of the terms greed and gross incompetence?

When I-75 is widened the voters will learn in 40 years, the real truth about how low transit taxes work in relationship to tax shifting without more money from passengers.

Where is the bus service in Romeo and Almont? They pay the SMART tax

Why was bus service reduced in Detroit and Dearborn to the point of nearly gone in many areas? Even a 2.5 Mil SMART tax won't fix this under present SMART and DDOT management and lack of industry supports.

The answers are logistics of proper planning for job growth, investments, intermodal and many other solutions.

Input equals Output

A vote of NO next August is what is now needed to improve mass transit. This will delay the freeway expansions by exposing the truth of why the HOV lanes should not be built until safety is put first and they serve everyone the same.

Higher speeds, bigger trucks, more cars and no state or industry funded bus service is a recipe for disaster, Thus the best choice is NO.

The large buses will come with a vote of NO and there will be more of them by educating our leaders at SEMCOG, MDOT, SMART, DDOT and other meetings.

[That Great Guy]

This isn't true. I've been involved in shifting service and eliminating some service in another jurisdiction. Among other things, you see public input and run it through a Title VI prism. While it's more difficult than just not running the busses on a particular route anymore, it's really a pretty easy process and not nearly as difficult [[or illegal) as you maintain.

The City of Livonia was required by law to pay for community transit after SMART shut down the large buses in November 2006. Should the SMART tax fail next August, every community which paid into the County Transit Authority will also be required to pay with state or alternative permanent funding under the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Thanks for your input and post.

[DetroitPlanner]

M-1 Rail's first newsletter:
http://us1.campaign-archive2.com/?u=...6&e=77c6615772

[DetroitPlanner]

The Great Guy: You are so wrong I am flabbergasted that someone could be so wrong. It is almost like pointing at blue and insisting it is red.

SMART provides the buses to Livonia for paratransit service, not the other way around. Livonia's voters opted out of SMART knowing full well that they will not have any linehaul service for its residents and those who work in the City.

[That Great Guy]

The Great Guy: You are so wrong I am flabbergasted that someone could be so wrong. It is almost like pointing at blue and insisting it is red.

SMART provides the buses to Livonia for paratransit service, not the other way around. Livonia's voters opted out of SMART knowing full well that they will not have any linehaul service for its residents and those who work in the City.

In the past there have been people who have mailed pictures of a crippled person with wording that says without the passage of the SMART millage that the pictured person will be denied essential taxpayer funded transportation.

What is more important? The I-75 HOV lanes? Or, taking care of the handicapped, elderly and the poor?

I'm all for improving mass transit and better roads. But not scare tactics and not a false crisis that is make believe of major shut downs and false propaganda.

The Civil Right of 1964 and the Americans with Disabilities Act can and should prevail. And in my opinion, the freeway expansions should not be built, until public bus service is fully restored and properly managed and funded. This will put safety first and will best serve the needs of everyone.

Also, in my opinion as long as buses are 2 hours late that too needs to stop, OR no more freeway expansions or money for light rail. I think our leaders need to learn to fix our transportation system or get out of the business and let someone else do the job

If you vote YES next August, then you want the Multi Billion dollar freeway expansions. That is your choice.

[professorscott]

The Great Guy: You are so wrong I am flabbergasted that someone could be so wrong. It is almost like pointing at blue and insisting it is red.

It's kind of like arguing with a prerecorded message, eh?

[DetroitPlanner]

It's kind of like arguing with a prerecorded message, eh?

Exactly like it!

[brizee]

PLEASE stop defecating all over this thread.

Apparently the public is more likely than not to support funding public transit.

But the powers that be want to push the vote to 2016.

That's real fucking smart. The problem is funding, so you want to DELAY funding!

Makes sense. If your brain is next to your asshole.

[Spartan]

PLEASE stop defecating all over this thread.

Apparently the public is more likely than not to support funding public transit.

But the powers that be want to push the vote to 2016.

That's real fucking smart. The problem is funding, so you want to DELAY funding!

Makes sense. If your brain is next to your asshole.

They want to increase vehicle registration fees to support public transportation? How the hell does that make sense? Make the people who aren't using it pay for it?