Woodward/M1 Rail -- DDOT reach accord on light rail

[BShea]

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...FREE/905219973

[kraig]

Looks like progress.

[Detroit Stylin]

Good finally....

[izzyindetroit]

Those guys mean business.

[ASR89]

The article says that the trains will co-mingle with traffic. Will that still mean:
A. The trains will still get their own right of way and cars will only co-mingle in the sense that parked cars will cross to driving lanes.

B. There is no dedicated right of way.

I seriously hope it isn't B. If it's a day the Tigers are playing, the trains will get stuck in traffic just like the cars and buses. I think having a dedicated right of way is a huge draw to potential riders. North of New Centre has been confirmed to have dedicated right of way.

I wish I could say that this is better than nothing. I just feel that "better than nothing" doesn't matter if what is going to exist is crappy and a "enhanced bus". Phoenix just got a light rail system. From what I have read, a lot of people like it, but due to the high number of stops and having to wait for lights, it takes twice as long as driving the whole route. That makes a lot of other people not want to ride the system.

That's just my two cents. It's still good to hear news.

[g-dub]

The article says that the trains will co-mingle with traffic. Will that still mean:
A. The trains will still get their own right of way and cars will only co-mingle in the sense that parked cars will cross to driving lanes.

B. There is no dedicated right of way.

I seriously hope it isn't B. If it's a day the Tigers are playing, the trains will get stuck in traffic just like the cars and buses. I think having a dedicated right of way is a huge draw to potential riders. North of New Centre has been confirmed to have dedicated right of way.

I wish I could say that this is better than nothing. I just feel that "better than nothing" doesn't matter if what is going to exist is crappy and a "enhanced bus". Phoenix just got a light rail system. From what I have read, a lot of people like it, but due to the high number of stops and having to wait for lights, it takes twice as long as driving the whole route. That makes a lot of other people not want to ride the system.

It may take a bit longer, but you don't have to worry about parking. And, it will make living along the corridor much more appealing to people who would rather not drive downtown to work, assuming they have jobs downtown. The traffic annoyances haven't been detrimental to other regions who have the same setup.

In the Chicago suburbs, Metra trains roll through the middle of town, forcing all traffic to pause for a minute, and it's no big deal. I suspect the M1 trains will run like every 20 minutes or so. And, of course, there's generally way less traffic in the affected section of Detroit than there is in the multitude of affected sections of suburban Chicago. If anything, it will open up the parking options for people attending events downtown, who will be able to park cheaply and ride [[which makes it kind of a curious thing that Ilitch would be a supporter, considering the threat to his downtown parking empire).

[dove-7]

It may take a bit longer, but you don't have to worry about parking. And, it will make living along the corridor much more appealing to people who would rather not drive downtown to work, assuming they have jobs downtown. The traffic annoyances haven't been detrimental to other regions who have the same setup.

In the Chicago suburbs, Metra trains roll through the middle of town, forcing all traffic to pause for a minute, and it's no big deal. I suspect the M1 trains will run like every 20 minutes or so. And, of course, there's generally way less traffic in the affected section of Detroit than there is in the multitude of affected sections of suburban Chicago. If anything, it will open up the parking options for people attending events downtown, who will be able to park cheaply and ride [[which makes it kind of a curious thing that Ilitch would be a supporter, considering the threat to his downtown parking empire).

Same with the Munni Trains here in San Francisco.

[Russix]

The article says that the trains will co-mingle with traffic. Will that still mean:
A. The trains will still get their own right of way and cars will only co-mingle in the sense that parked cars will cross to driving lanes.

B. There is no dedicated right of way.

I seriously hope it isn't B. If it's a day the Tigers are playing, the trains will get stuck in traffic just like the cars and buses. I think having a dedicated right of way is a huge draw to potential riders. North of New Centre has been confirmed to have dedicated right of way.

I wish I could say that this is better than nothing. I just feel that "better than nothing" doesn't matter if what is going to exist is crappy and a "enhanced bus". Phoenix just got a light rail system. From what I have read, a lot of people like it, but due to the high number of stops and having to wait for lights, it takes twice as long as driving the whole route. That makes a lot of other people not want to ride the system.

That's just my two cents. It's still good to hear news.

Yes, its B.

It's runs in traffic and through downtown. The people who designed this live in outer space and have never ridden a bus or any other form of public transit. It's average speed is projected at 6 mph pending it isn't getting stuck in extra traffic on the lower woodward portion.

[DetroitDad]

Yes, its B.

It's runs in traffic and through downtown. The people who designed this live in outer space and have never ridden a bus or any other form of public transit. It's average speed is projected at 6 mph pending it isn't getting stuck in extra traffic on the lower woodward portion.

What!? Penske, Karmanos, The Ilitches, Gilbert and their design team DON'T ride the bus or People Mover!?

I swear I've seen Gilbert riding the Plymouth to Grand River from Livonia. Heh, could you picture him waiting on that corner for the transfer?

[mam2009]

http://www.semcog.org/Data/Apps/tran...password=guest

Can anybody with a transit background interpret this for me?

1. What does RTP stand for?
2. Is this saying that funding has been approved for the ENTIRE Woodward Light Rail project?
3. Does this mean that federal funding is being used for a study on a study for light rail in Oakland County between 8 and 11 Mile Roads?

I'm excited about the possiblity for light rail especially if it expands beyond Woodward. I am concerned about whether we can pay for it though.

[jsmyers]

[URL]Can anybody with a transit background interpret this for me?

1. What does RTP stand for?
2. Is this saying that funding has been approved for the ENTIRE Woodward Light Rail project?
3. Does this mean that federal funding is being used for a study on a study for light rail in Oakland County between 8 and 11 Mile Roads?

TRP = Regional Transportation Plan. This is the long range blueprint for infrastructure planning. In many regions, it functions like a wish list. Its counterpart is the TIP = Transportation Improvement Plan. By federal law, the TIP can only have things on it that have identified funding sources.

There is not enough money on that page to pay for the whole thing. It just means that they have designated project boundaries and they are planning on spending money from the identified programs on it.

[Danny]

There will a public meeting for the Woodward Light Rail Transit at the DPL Main Branch at Woodward Ave north of Warren Ave from 11:00am to 1:00pm. on Saturday February 12th. Go voice your concerns.

[Danny]

Just like the People Mover, The new M1 light rail will be Detroit's trolley system since we lost our trolly system. The last trolley system run from East to West Jefferson to Washington Blvd. was in early 1990s.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

Now we need a subway.

Neda, I miss you so.

[Danny]

Don't count on the light rail proposal yet. There will be more bureaucratic paperwork, meetings, and dogmatic debates about mass transit while Detroit is still in financial shambles. It took years, years and years to have the People Mover into Downtown Detroit and we,ve got it. Over twenty years later, to move people around Downtown Detroit.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

Becuase Mass transit is necessity, not just a priviledge for Neda's sake.

[Eric_c]

I'm of the opinion that the system will need to tie in to some sort of Park and Ride to best accomplish the goal of getting people out of their cars and onto the streets.

Keep in mind, the initial portion between Downtown and New Center will end up being the first exposure Metro-Detroiters will have had to rail transit in decades. Prying people from their cars will be tough enough as it is, but by incorporating a Park and Ride aspect from the very beginning, and then advertising and advocating its' availability, I believe the system will be able to achieve its' highest and best use.

Something to the efffect of "Going Downtown? Park and Ride the Woodward line."

I'm aware of plenty of parking in the New Center, directly across from Henry Ford Hospital. According to the Crains article, they want a spur and a station; I say, "Perfect".

Still wondering where the car barn/yard/service facility will be located. Again, plenty of space available just West of the Lodge and South of the Boulevard, so that sounds like a nice terminus to me!

[g-dub]

"Its financial and organizational backers include Penske Corp. founder Roger Penske Peter, who is chairman of the M1 Rail project; Peter Karmanos Jr., founder of Detroit-based software maker Compuware Corp.; Mike Ilitch, owner of the Detroit Tigers and Detroit Red Wings and co-founder of Little Caesar Enterprises Inc.; and Quicken Loans/Rock Financial founder Dan Gilbert, who’s the project’s co-chairman."

City officials love to flex their muscle, but there's no way they can object to heavy hitters like that. These are people who actually get things done.

[stasu1213]

"Its financial and organizational backers include Penske Corp. founder Roger Penske Peter, who is chairman of the M1 Rail project; Peter Karmanos Jr., founder of Detroit-based software maker Compuware Corp.; Mike Ilitch, owner of the Detroit Tigers and Detroit Red Wings and co-founder of Little Caesar Enterprises Inc.; and Quicken Loans/Rock Financial founder Dan Gilbert, who’s the project’s co-chairman."

City officials love to flex their muscle, but there's no way they can object to heavy hitters like that. These are people who actually get things done.

What does the Ford family has to say being that Ford Field is in the area to. Let's hope Dave Bing and the common council doesnt try to stall this project to look out for Ford, GM, the oil companies and any entities that corresponds with the AUTOMOBILE. This will be a perfect time for it. It will not be a problem getting riders on the train being that many people can't afford to have a car anymore. Cheaper to catch the rail. More stores would probably open in Merchants Row on Woodward and the strip of shops along Woodward and Grand Blvd will probably upgrade from cheap wigs and ghetto apparel shops to more upscale shops

[casscorridor]

This website is absurd. Just look at those shoddy pictures and that half-assed video. It is a joke compared to DTOGS. This is what happens when we let corporations control everything. If this is what is built, which functionally is only a minor improvement over the bus, it will stunt future growth of mass transit.

The video caption does say

"
This video demonstrates how the light rail line may function on Woodward Avenue. The actual car and station designs, as well as station locations, have not yet been determined.
"

So... that means it is totally open and there might be a possibility that more will be taken from the DTOGS plan. The video shows different types of cars--mainly smaller--, the stations look pain in compared to DTOGS stations, and the curbside aspect is a NIGHTMARE!

I can not stress enough why we need a massive change in the way federal transportation funding is spent. We can't rely on the mega-wealthy to fund our projects. We get shitty results. This plan is totally lame, for lack of a better word.

ALSO - people always make fun of the People Mover, but it is great. And I wish that was what got built instead of this crap. People Mover runs every 3 minutes and almost never breaks down, much less get stuck in traffic/run into cars. FAR superior to this. Why? Because it has a grade-separated, dedicated right-of-way! It is REAL mass transit. I don't know how this can be considered mass transit.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do something to make sure the DTOGS plan is fully implemented [[with the acception of less stations between midtown and new center) instead of this, which will be hard to work into a real mass transit system. Light-rail will function similarly to rapid transit [[like the people mover), and is just a lesser form of rapid transit. Streetcar is a bus we tracks. end of discussion.

[dtowncitylover]

This website is absurd. Just look at those shoddy pictures and that half-assed video. It is a joke compared to DTOGS. This is what happens when we let corporations control everything. If this is what is built, which functionally is only a minor improvement over the bus, it will stunt future growth of mass transit.

The video caption does say

"
This video demonstrates how the light rail line may function on Woodward Avenue. The actual car and station designs, as well as station locations, have not yet been determined.
"

So... that means it is totally open and there might be a possibility that more will be taken from the DTOGS plan. The video shows different types of cars--mainly smaller--, the stations look pain in compared to DTOGS stations, and the curbside aspect is a NIGHTMARE!

I can not stress enough why we need a massive change in the way federal transportation funding is spent. We can't rely on the mega-wealthy to fund our projects. We get shitty results. This plan is totally lame, for lack of a better word.

ALSO - people always make fun of the People Mover, but it is great. And I wish that was what got built instead of this crap. People Mover runs every 3 minutes and almost never breaks down, much less get stuck in traffic/run into cars. FAR superior to this. Why? Because it has a grade-separated, dedicated right-of-way! It is REAL mass transit. I don't know how this can be considered mass transit.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do something to make sure the DTOGS plan is fully implemented [[with the acception of less stations between midtown and new center) instead of this, which will be hard to work into a real mass transit system. Light-rail will function similarly to rapid transit [[like the people mover), and is just a lesser form of rapid transit. Streetcar is a bus we tracks. end of discussion.

Cass, I understand your frustration, but it's the corporations that have the money right now. The City of Detroit has almost no money to build a LRT line from downtown to 8 Mile. I applaud these guys for using their own money that will create jobs and growth for the benefit of the resident of Detoit. I don't think you will find these corps running the entire thing that's not their job. Eventually this will be run by DDOT using union work, which I'm all for. You might find their ad on the inside of the train, but that's expected.

As for the People Mover, it is unfortunate that the full plan was never realized but that is old technology and building a monorail or elevated system would cost in the billions. Light rail, like I have state before, is the new thing. Light rail is mass transit. If we build lines along Gratiot, Jefferson, and Grand River, we can really become a transit-oriented city. It is not, however, heavy rail transit, like a subway.

Remember, M-1 Rail and DTOGS are working together. While M-1 may say that have yet to determine what the stations are going to look like, DTOGS has. I think for an urban place like Lower Woodward I can dig curbside. But perhaps north of the Boulevard it can move into the middle of the street.

And, ljbad, San Fran also has a extensive light rail system which co-mingles with traffice for some, if not most, of the line.

I would really like to see AnsaldoBreda be awarded the contract for light rail vehicles, they make awesome products.

[esp1986]

What does the Ford family has to say being that Ford Field is in the area to. Let's hope Dave Bing and the common council doesnt try to stall this project to look out for Ford, GM, the oil companies and any entities that corresponds with the AUTOMOBILE. This will be a perfect time for it. It will not be a problem getting riders on the train being that many people can't afford to have a car anymore. Cheaper to catch the rail. More stores would probably open in Merchants Row on Woodward and the strip of shops along Woodward and Grand Blvd will probably upgrade from cheap wigs and ghetto apparel shops to more upscale shops

GM and Ford currently have bigger fish to fry and I think everyone realizes that they cannot allow another proposal like this to be shot down. There is nothing for GM or Ford to gain from shooting this down... people already live in the suburbs, and if this is built as planned, that won't change. While Ford does have a vested interest in downtown, Bill Jr. is too tied up in FoMoCo, I've been told, and Bill Sr. doesn't give a rats ass about anything other than mediocre football. If times were better, I wouldn't be surprised to see GM putting their hand in the pot, given all they have invested in downtown in recent years, and other than their political "money saving" ploy to move to Warren, they are pretty committed to downtown.

[DetroitDad]

I hope it's not every twenty minutes! What Midtown/Downtown/New Center locals would ever ride that? At the transit meetings they have been saying trains would be only 90 seconds to three minutes apart, depending on time of day, with the rapid transit buses being three to five minutes apart. Has anyone heard any different?

[g-dub]

I hope it's not every twenty minutes! What Midtown/Downtown/New Center locals would ever ride that? At the transit meetings they have been saying trains would be only 90 seconds to three minutes apart, depending on time of day, with the rapid transit buses being three to five minutes apart. Has anyone heard any different?

It was just a blind guess. Typically schedules are relative to time of day. Certainly the schedule has to be thought out at some point. One can do the math, but in order to have a train of two or three cars running every few minutes along that stretch at 25 mph or whatever would require a few trains, where they could get by with lower expenses and less traffic interruptions with trains going by every five minutes or so at least. Even in New Orleans, along the St. Charles line, it's at least 10 minutes at a time, and people adjust to the schedule and become accustomed to it. 8-10 minutes is standard even for the El in Chicago, even at peak commuter periods.

[dnvn522]

The service will be available from 6 a.m. to 11 p.m. with an estimated 75-cent toll that will be honor-based, meaning tickets are bought prior to boarding and are randomly checked during trips.

Really? Honor based? They expect that to work?

[dtowncitylover]

Really? Honor based? They expect that to work?

It works in SanFran.

[bahbay]

It works in SanFran.

Exsqueeze Me! ... but it _definately_ does not work in SF. It is NOT designed as an honor system, it is getting increasingly harder to ride for free [[ the MUNI Police write $100 citations for 1st offense fare scofflaws). All riders must have in their possesion valid proof of payment.
[[MUNI = SF Municipal Railway)

just sayin...